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The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
50:33 Listen to How Do We Share and Defend the Gospel with Relevance for Today with Leading Christian Apologist, Speaker, Author, & Professor, Dr. Sean McDowell, Ep. 205 How Do We Share and Defend the Gospel with Relevance for Today with Leading Christian Apologist, Speaker, Author, & Professor, Dr. Sean McDowell, Ep. 205 Dec 24 · 51 min ...more
How Do We Share and Defend the Gospel with Relevance for Today with Leading Christian Apologist, Speaker, Author, & Professor, Dr. Sean McDowell, Ep. 205
December 24, 2024 · 51 min
As we engage in all of the Christmas festivities over the next several days, we must take the time to reflect on and celebrate the true reason for the season, Jesus! Yet, although many may know and remember the words of John 3:16 which says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” many struggle to understand the why behind their belief and how they might share it with others. That is why on this Christmas Eve we are bringing on one of the foremost leading Christian apologists in the world to help educate, equip, and encourage to not only understand the WHY behind our faith, but also help us understand how we can more effectively witness and share the truth of God’s love with others, Dr. Sean McDowell. Sean is a gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church, and in particular young people, to make the case for the Christian faith. He connects with audiences in a tangible way through humor and stories while imparting hard evidence and logical support for viewing all areas of life through a Biblical worldview. Sean is an Associate Professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Additionally, he is the author, co-author, or editor of over twenty books and is listed among the top 100 apologists in the world! 1 Peter 3:15 says, “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope.” Our prayer is that this conversation would equip you with that explanation today and forevermore. Learn more about Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/ Some FREE Thought Provoking Videos by Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/videos Listen to Sean’s Podcast: https://seanmcdowell.org/podcasts Purchase Sean’s Books: https://seanmcdowell.org/books Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton December 24, 2024 · 51 min · The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
As we engage in all of the Christmas festivities over the next several days, we must take the time to reflect on and celebrate the true reason for the season, Jesus! Yet, although many may know and remember the words of John 3:16 which says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” many struggle to understand the why behind their belief and how they might share it with others. That is why on this Christmas Eve we are bringing on one of the foremost leading Christian apologists in the world to help educate, equip, and encourage to not only understand the WHY behind our faith, but also help us understand how we can more effectively witness and share the truth of God’s love with others, Dr. Sean McDowell. Sean is a gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church, and in particular young people, to make the case for the Christian faith. He connects with audiences in a tangible way through humor and stories while imparting hard evidence and logical support for viewing all areas of life through a Biblical worldview. Sean is an Associate Professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Additionally, he is the author, co-author, or editor of over twenty books and is listed among the top 100 apologists in the world! 1 Peter 3:15 says, “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope.” Our prayer is that this conversation would equip you with that explanation today and forevermore. Learn more about Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/ Some FREE Thought Provoking Videos by Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/videos Listen to Sean’s Podcast: https://seanmcdowell.org/podcasts Purchase Sean’s Books: https://seanmcdowell.org/books Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us. ...more Show the full description Show less As we engage in all of the Christmas festivities over the next several days, we must take the time to reflect on and celebrate the true reason for the season, Jesus! Yet, although many may know and remember the words of John 3:16 which says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” many struggle to understand the why behind their belief and how they might share it with others. That is why on this Christmas Eve we are bringing on one of the foremost leading Christian apologists in the world to help educate, equip, and encourage to not only understand the WHY behind our faith, but also help us understand how we can more effectively witness and share the truth of God’s love with others, Dr. Sean McDowell. Sean is a gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church, and in particular young people, to make the case for the Christian faith. He connects with audiences in a tangible way through humor and stories while imparting hard evidence and logical support for viewing all areas of life through a Biblical worldview. Sean is an Associate Professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Additionally, he is the author, co-author, or editor of over twenty books and is listed among the top 100 apologists in the world! 1 Peter 3:15 says, “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope.” Our prayer is that this conversation would equip you with that explanation today and forevermore. Learn more about Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/ Some FREE Thought Provoking Videos by Sean: https://seanmcdowell.org/videos Listen to Sean’s Podcast: https://seanmcdowell.org/podcasts Purchase Sean’s Books: https://seanmcdowell.org/books Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
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M.A. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, doctoral student in Clinical Psychology. Host of ‘The Built Different Podcast’ with guests like Kirk Cousins, Albert
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0:02 Life audio. Built Different is a production of the American Association of Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread the gospel, and provide0:13 mental health resources and training to people everywhere, just go to a a c c foundation dot o r g. Again, that's a a c c foundation dot org.0:24 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder that0:35 you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in life's0:47 ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope is0:59 always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold.1:10 Marriage was never meant to be effortless, but it was meant to endure. Tried and True is a scripture centered marriage guide for couples who want a marriage shaped by faith, not perfection. I'm1:21 Dana Shay, the author. In this book, I explore 12 imperfect biblical marriages, stories marked by struggle, waiting, failure, and restoration. Rather than1:33 offering quick fixes, tried and true helps couples to understand how spiritual intimacy and emotional connection grow through hardship, not the absence of it. With biblical1:44 insight, reflection, and guided conversation, this book meets couples in the long middle of marriage and points them toward lasting hope. Available now at tried and true marriage book
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2:08 Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton, your host. And each week, I come to you exclusively on the Life Audio Podcast Network. I'm proud to partner with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family
2:18 friendly podcast for a new generation. At Built Different, our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help push you past your limits and reach goals you never thought possible. Colossians 2 verse 6
2:29 says, so then just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen? Now let's roll.
2:38 What's going on everybody? And welcome back in to this week's edition of the built different podcast. I'll be your host, Zach Clinton. And as always,
2:49 I hope and pray each and every 1 of you had a blessed weekend and are having a great start to your week. I gotta do it, my friends. Ho ho ho ho. Merry Christmas, everybody. It is Christmas
3:01 Eve. Tomorrow is Christmas day as of the release of this episode. I hope and pray that each and every 1 of you would have been having an incredible Christmas season thus far, and that you would truly just sit back and
3:12 take the time to reflect on the joy and the wonder that God loved you so much that he sent his 1 and only son Jesus to be born not a lavish mansion, but a lowly manger to live a sinless and a
3:24 blameless life to be the propitiation for your sins, to die a substitutionary death on a Roman rugged cross, defeating sin, then rising again 3 days later defeating death so that you would have the opportunity of
3:35 spending eternal life with him. That is who our god is, and he sent his 1 and only son Jesus over 2000 years ago to be born in that manger on a rescue mission, and he had you in mind. I just gotta remind you that
3:47 today. I'm fired up. I'm excited. That's the God that we get to serve. And that's the God that we're gonna talk about in and throughout today's conversation. Today, we're gonna talk a lot about the next
3:58 generation. Some of the challenges that they're up against. Maybe some of the reasoning as to why some of the statistics are showing that a lot of our next gen are walking away from the church. But then ultimately, how
4:08 our guest today is equipping them with helping them not only defend, but ultimately share a reason behind the hope that they have. In first Peter chapter 3 verse 15, it says, always be ready to give
4:20 an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope. So I thought this would be a perfect episode, a perfect conversation to have on Christmas Eve because I wanna help you understand what it looks like to
4:30 walk with, to find the wonder of, to worship, and ultimately to become a witness for the king of kings and the lord of lords. Joining us today is 1 of the most notable and influential Christian
4:41 apologists of our day and age. His name is doctor Sean McDowell. Doctor Sean is a gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church and in particular young people to make the case for the Christian faith. He
4:53 also serves as an associate professor in the Christian apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. And again, this is a man, my friends, who is on the front lines just witnessing in evangelism
5:05 and apologetics on why he believes what he believes and why he carries the hope that he has in Jesus Christ. I hope and pray that this conversation would not just educate and equip you, but 1 that would
5:16 encourage and empower you to continually have a reason and to be prepared to have an explanation to anyone who may ask you as well for the reason, for the hope that you have. So with that being said, let's
5:28 welcome our very special guest again. His name is doctor Sean McDowell. Sean, my friend, thank you so much for joining me today.
5:35 Thanks, Zach. Good to be on with you.
5:36 Brother, what a blessing it is to kind of continue our conversation from some time that we were able to spend together at our Next Gen event, which was an event really centered around youth and young adult mental health
5:46 in Atlanta, Georgia. You came, you spoke, it was powerful, inspirational, so authentic, so vulnerable as to how we can really reach and meet the needs of today's generations. I believe, sir, that you're 1 of the most
5:58 notable and influential Christian apologists of our day and age. A gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church and in particular young people to make the case for the Christian faith. You also serve as an
6:09 associate professor, professor in the Christian apologetics program at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. You see that Biola sign behind you. You clearly have a heart and a passion for this next gen. You
6:20 spend a lot of time with them. Sean, just upfront, as we begin, I want you to I wanna ask the question, where does this mission, to reach and to influence these young people really stem from within you?
6:31 Zach, like you, I have a father who's been a leader in the Christian world for decades.
6:38 Yes.
6:38 And we've seen people. Both of our dads have talked about reaching the next generation, caring for young people, and they've modeled it to us. So my dad never sat down
6:50 and said, son, you should be a speaker. You should be a writer. You could be a voice to the next generation. He never said that, Zach. He just modeled it for me. And I saw him influence people's lives.
7:03 Sacrifice. I saw him live with a kind of passion. And all I can say is it was kind of just I don't even know if this is a word, but it was just like I was drawn to it. It just it was kind of infestive, so to speak. Like,
7:14 it just saw, wow, that's how you live for Christ and for the kingdom. And it seemed natural to me. I I I debated if I wanted to coach or teach, but
7:24 I never really thought I didn't wanna spend my time caring about reaching the next generation. Man, I love your heart. I love your passion for it. It's evident. It's palpable in the way that you speak. And even
7:36 in the interviews that you do, I've watched so many of them. I watch your stuff. I'm grateful for the work that you contribute to the kingdom of God. But I wanna ask this question because it's something my dad and I talk
7:45 a lot about. It's this buzz and this concern around the fact that many are talking about with our next generation kinda drifting or walking away from our faith. Saw concerning an alarming article at the end of 20
7:57 23 where studies conducted by Barna Group and USA Today found that nearly 75 percent of Christian young people fall away from the faith and leave the church after high school. Sean, in your work at this next generation,
8:09 I wanna ask, what are you seeing? Like, you kinda seeing that trend? But also, what are some of your biggest concerns moving forward?
8:16 Well, people have been talking about the concern of people leaving the faith really since Gen Xers, which is my generation. You kind of see the trends start and the nones growing, so to speak, in
8:28 the '90s. And yet it seems to have kind of really increased recently with all this talk about deconstruction and deconversion. I think at the root of it, a couple things are at the core of
8:40 it. 1 is a worldview issue, Is that if we don't raise up a generation that knows how to navigate reality and all the challenges that come from social
8:51 media, the educational system, from Hollywood, whatever, Netflix, you name it, they're gonna simply be conformed to the world around them. Right? Romans 12, don't be
9:03 conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And so 1 reason young people walk away and disengage the church and or their faith is because they just
9:15 haven't learned how to navigate culture and our kind of our cultural moment as a Christian. The other 1, I think, is really relational. The largest study I'm aware of, and I I wrote
9:27 a book on this with a friend, so we use it to he is a detective. And so we gather down all of them the studies we could find at the time about kids disengaged in the church and their faith. And the largest
9:39 study that seems to be 1 of the most definitive to me came from a sociologist at USC by the name of Vern Benxton. He wrote a book with Oxford a few years ago called Faith and Families.
9:50 And they studied 3500 people over 35 years for 4 generations asking what are the sociological factors that need to be at play for faith to be
10:02 transmitted from 1 generation to the next. They said positively grandparents are making more and more of an influence now than in the past. They said divorce rocks a kid's faith
10:14 as a whole. But the number 1 factor of faith transmission is a, quote, warm relationship with the father. A warm relationship with the father. So
10:26 I'm seeing a worldview breakdown and a relational breakdown, and they both contribute in different ways. In fact, I was just you mentioned some interviews. I'm about to interview a guy soon who's a
10:38 former Ku Klux Klan man who comes to Christ. And part of his radicalization was he read books and their ideas that changed his thinking. But he talks about a
10:50 relational breakdown of his father that left a void that the meaning of the Ku Klux Klan and others came in to fill. So there's a relational and there's a truth component at play here.
11:01 I'm gonna stop this right there and jump in to say, you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors. I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation
11:10 flowing right after this. You're listening to Life Audio.
11:15 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder that
11:27 you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in life's
11:39 ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope is
11:50 always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in
12:02 God's word every day? The daily bible devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy
12:13 daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's
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12:33 Let me tell you, I'm grateful that you've already brought up the relationship that you have with your dad, Josh. Many would recognize the name 1 of the greatest Christian apologists to ever walk the face of the earth.
12:43 Right? He's done so much in the same space and you living in that space now, you and I can really relate because in following in a sense in my dad's footsteps in this mental health space of Christian faith based mental
12:54 health care. I grew up with parents that were heavily involved in ministry my entire life too. But I loved what you shared at our NextGen conference when you were vulnerable. And you said, you know what? There was a
13:05 season, there was a time in my life, even growing up under my dad, where I questioned my faith, where I had to wrestle with this idea of what is truth. So, I would love for you to kind of just share what you went
13:16 through, what that season of life was like for you, and how you found a settledness in the peace that comes in the gospel of Christ.
13:24 Yeah. Our your viewers and listeners can assess if it's true or not. But in my mind, growing up, my dad was the Michael Jordan of apologetics. Yes. Hands down, I think in the eighties and nineties, 1 of the
13:36 most recognizable Christian leaders, spoken at 1200 universities, hundred and 50 books, just massive influence defending the truth of the gospel. And the story was he's trying to disprove it,
13:48 ended up being compelled by the evidence. This is before there were basically any apologetics books besides Frances Schaeffer and CS Lewis, who's kind of a trailblazer, ends up being convinced that it's true.
14:00 Well, I believed it growing up. It made sense. In the mid nineties, I'm in college, and they had this new incredible technology called the Internet. And this is like pre Google.
14:11 And I'm searching around and I find some kind of early blog where the atheist web was built at least largely responding to my dad's material chapter
14:23 by chapter. His book Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Doctors, historians, lawyers. And this is really the first time I encountered smart people who challenged the ideas that I had learned growing up. And I
14:35 remember not only thinking in my mind I could be wrong, but feeling it in my gut going, wow, what if I'm mistaken about this? What if there is no God? What if another religion is true, etcetera.
14:48 And so that was a that was a quite a season for me. And I remember talking with my dad. I don't remember how much time passed, Zach. I wish I could. But sometime later, a number of months later, I was in
14:59 Breckenridge, Colorado and asked my dad if we could go out for coffee. And he goes, sure. So we sit down and I can still picture it now. I don't know. That was 30 years later, basically.
15:11 I said, dad, I wanna know what's true, but I'm just not convinced that Christianity is true, not knowing what he would say. And he looks at me and he goes, son, I think that's great. And I remember thinking like, dad,
15:21 did you literally hear anything that I just said? Right. And he goes he goes, I heard you. You can't live on my convictions. You gotta decide what you think is true and follow it. And Jesus is the truth.
15:33 If you seek after him, I'm convinced you'll follow Jesus. And maybe 1 or 2 other things he said, he said, you know, don't reject what you've learned grown up unless you're convinced it's not true. Follow truth.
15:46 And, you know, your mom and I will love you no matter what. And that sounds dramatic and it was, but it was just it was a pivotal moment for me that was like, okay, I gotta figure this out. And I'm not gonna read my
15:58 dad's books, you know. Sometimes, just gotta hear it from somebody else. You need a mister Miyagi or Gandalf or, you know, whatever. I just needed to hear somebody else say it, and I wanted to read a lot of, like,
16:10 academic sources too. And over time, I mean, I just I really don't wanna overdramatize. But over time, I was like, okay. The resurrection happened. Jesus is God. This makes sense.
16:22 And just found myself saying I believe this. And then ultimately, wanting to work as an apologist over time as well.
16:29 I'm so grateful that your dad responded in that manner and really allowed you the opportunity to recognize that he was gonna love you regardless. But ultimately, he was gonna continue to model that faith
16:41 out for you living it out and then give you the opportunity to seek truth and to find truth exactly where you found in the good news of the gospel of Christ. You know, as you mentioned that though, it takes me back,
16:52 Sean, to some of my old days growing up in the Christian school, going to Liberty University. I would sit in Bible class growing up as a kid in chapel services. And I remember people would always come and speak and
17:03 talking about personalizing your faith. Right? Growing up under my mom and dad who were both heavily involved in ministry my entire life, it was almost as if people were saying like I was renting their faith. Right? I I
17:14 saw what they were living. I saw what they were modeling, but I didn't understand what it meant to personalize it. There might be a viewer or a listener out there, Sean, who's asking the question, like, does
17:24 personalizing my faith look like? What does that process look like? What is your answer to that type of question?
17:31 I think personalizing our faith is coming to the moment of recognizing for ourselves that we are sinners in need of God's grace. It was sometime after this,
17:43 maybe a year or 2 later, I'm in I'm in college. And I remember I had just an experience that I felt like really personalized my faith. We're on retreat up the mountains and had a talk
17:55 on Henry Nouwen, this late Catholic priest who had written a book called The Return of the Prodigal Son. And the person giving the talk talked about how Henry Nouwen
18:07 is this priest, always thought he needed to have this prodigal son radical experience. And somebody says to me, he goes, you're not like the prodigal son, you're like the older son. You've been doing everything right
18:18 your whole life but you're so proud, You can't even see it. And he gave this talk and I sat there and was like, oh my goodness. That's me,
18:29 Zach. And we went out and had this just, you know, like an hour of solitude, which even before social media at that time in the nineties was like the longest time ever. And I just sat there and reflected
18:41 upon. I I haven't done the big sins we were told in the eighties. Don't drink and smoke and have sex and rock and roll. And I prided myself that I was better than
18:53 other people. And yet, in the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15, the older son is just as lost and the father also has to go out to him. But he's not
19:05 lost in wild sinful living. He's lost in duty and being loyal and working as if he can earn the love of the father. Now, you can ask the
19:16 question, was I saved before then or not? I have no idea. Only God knows that. I think so. We work in different times in different ways. But people with a lasting faith have some kind of experience
19:28 where they personally recognize that they're a sinner and they need god's grace. People have told me it happened to him at 4, and I had different experiences certainly growing up, but that was a definitive 1
19:40 where I remember going, wow, this applies to me. And in that case, was in conversation with others that followed up really moved to tears about it. Man, it's powerful. I can relate to that. Right? Where it's like,
19:52 hey, I may not have that that, you know, Saul to Paul testimony on the road of Damascus where something tragic happened and there was this big in a sense tragedy that turned into triumph in my life. But like
20:04 you, I can relate to that older brother of the prodigal son and still recognizing that I am in need of God's grace. I was interviewing Lee Strobel a while back and he has that simplistic almost math
20:16 equation. Right? Where he talks about believing plus receiving that grace, that love, that forgiveness of Christ equals becoming a child of God. And that's where I wanna kinda transition here that becoming aspect, the
20:28 identity of who we are because of whose we are. You know this, I was gonna bring this up anyways. The mental health disaster we find ourselves in and our next generation specifically finds themselves in. Things like
20:38 anxiety, depression, addiction, suicidality, all of those things are on the rise. The CDC report on our girls, on our daughters, 57 percent of teen girls described feeling persistently sad or hopeless
20:50 battling with depression type symptoms. 30 percent of teen girls reported seriously considering attempting suicide. On top of that, add in the gender confusion and identity issues. The CDC recently noted
21:02 26 percent of high schoolers identify as LGBTQ plus. Another national survey found that nearly 30 percent of Gen z adults identify as LGBTQ plus. Sean, what do you
21:13 think are some of the contributing factors, not just to the mental health disaster our next gen finds himself in, but also the identity crisis our culture and society find themselves in? Well,
21:25 you know, there's a lot
21:26 of factors that contribute to this. At the root of it, we'll find a lot of relational breakdown. I mean, fatherlessness is huge. I think quite obviously, we've seen that social media plays a role in
21:38 this with guys, but even probably more so with girls with comparison. But I think as an apologist, I can't help but draw our attention to certain ideas that have been changing and brewing in our
21:50 culture that contribute to this as well. So for example, it used to be that we truth is something you discover and you find outside of yourself and you
22:01 conform yourself to that reality. And it mean you are a free person when you discover what truth is and live according to that truth.
22:13 So truth is like a piano, I discover what a piano is made for, use the discipline to play the piano, I sit down and play it, I'm free. There's been a shift over the
22:25 past few years from objective truth to subjective truth. Mhmm. We hear people say things like, you know, that may be true for you but not true for me or live
22:37 your truth. So now there's a shift that we look within to our own feelings to define who we are. And then we're only happy if other
22:49 people affirm and celebrate however I feel. Well, that is not what human beings are made for. We can't function well when the weight of our
23:01 identity rooted in how we feel and looking subjectively within. So, that's in part why you shall know the truth. And in that particular context, Jesus is
23:13 also talking about experiencing forgiveness, the truth of God, and that truth shall set us free. So, whether it's suicidality, whether it's anxiety, whether it's
23:24 depression, at the root of so many of these along with relational breakdown and other issues, there's an ideological even spiritual battle taking
23:36 place about the purpose of life, the root of happiness, what it means to be human, how we find freedom. And I've actually said a lot. I think 1 of the biggest
23:47 lies that Satan has today that this generation and others believe is that freedom is doing whatever feels good without consequences. That I'm the author of my life and I live how I
23:59 feel. That is a profound confusion and lie, I think, of the devil that has a lot of consequences, including in the realm of mental health.
24:10 So good. When you're talking about that postmodernistic, relativistic culture and society we find ourselves in where it's feelings or preferences over principles and truth. And as you're mentioning, there might be a
24:21 listener viewer out there who's hearing us talk about objective truth, absolute truth. And they're not exactly sure how to discern, right, that type of truth from all of the noise that we're healing
24:32 or that we're hearing all over culture and society today. Like you said, I mean, it's turned up. It's pretty loud. It's pretty rampant. People are always giving their subjective truth. Right? How do you feel about this?
24:43 So how do those types of people who are just hearing this conversation, just kinda hearing about absolute truth for the first time, where do they go to know and to discern the truth from the lies?
24:55 Well, first off, keep in mind, people can have their own beliefs, but you cannot have your own truth. Mhmm. You can have your own beliefs, but you cannot have your own truth. Why?
25:07 Because truth is when a belief matches up with reality. That's what truth is. If I say it's raining right now in Southern California at this time, in this place, and it is, my belief is true. If it's not, my
25:19 belief is false. So then the question is, how do we know that our beliefs match up with reality? Well, how we discover truth in science is different than
25:31 how we discover truth in history. And that's different than how we discover truth in psychology. So we have to use the tools appropriate to a particular discipline to discover
25:42 truth. Now, of course, as Christians, we believe the root of truth is God and his character as revealed within the scriptures. I was preaching this past Sunday on
25:54 Acts 17, and Paul, after he leaves Thessalonica, goes to Berea. And he goes right to the synagogue, and he starts preaching. And he was warmly received. They said, we will hear you out, but we're gonna
26:06 run this through the grid of scripture and make sure it lines up. And then, some of them believe that Jesus is the Christ. So, our grid should be
26:17 scripture. We should run now, some things are explicitly talked about. Some things like artificial intelligence, of course, are not or even specifically racial reconciliation because the idea
26:29 that our identity rests in our skin color is more of a modern idea. But the Bible talks about diversity. The Bible talks about knowledge in ways that
26:41 apply to these issues very significantly. And so, let's run it through scripture. But 1 other practical thing that I would say is if somebody pulls up
26:53 their whoever they fall on YouTube or social media or their podcast, and they only listen to people who agree with them, then chances are you're buying a narrative
27:05 and you're not gonna discover truth. It's easy today to surround ourselves with voices that affirm what we believe and then you start to think the other side is stupid and
27:17 idiotic and dangerous and demented and completely ruining the country. Right. So I have political views and I won't talk about them on your show or other areas publicly. I won't because of my lane of what I
27:28 do. Yeah. But I read the New York Times almost every morning and that is a left leaning publication. But I also listen to I I
27:40 enjoy Brett Bear on Fox News. I think he's relatively balanced. I try to get a range of voices on issues and then just try to discern what is true. There's a proverb that says, the first to
27:52 speak in court sounds right until the cross examination begins. So to answer a question, let's run everything through scripture. But also, when we're looking at issues, make
28:04 sure we understand and consider different voices, asking ourselves, am I being affected by my emotions? Am I even affected by my tribe? Am I being affected by some experience? Or am I willing to follow the truth
28:16 where it leads even if it's uncomfortable?
28:19 I like that. So running everything through scripture but then also considering other opinions to make sure that you have a reason as to why you believe the truth that you do believe. That's so powerful. And then, I
28:31 know another thing that you've talked about, you've written about actually, as you're talking about not just seeking community for comfort, for validation, for affirmation, But you wrote a book right around COVID and I
28:43 think it was a very pertinent time for the book to come out called Chasing Love. And I need to ask you about it because I think you nailed it. And I think that our next generation often finds himself chasing that very
28:52 thing from a cultural perspective though, and not from the biblical worldview perspective of what love looks like from the biblical truth. So Sean, help
29:00 us understand why this idea of this next gen chasing love has kind of caused some identity confusion, but also what does the biblical worldview say on what love is moving forward?
29:12 I really wrote that book, Chasing Love, for my kids. My son now is 20 and my daughter's 17. And I couldn't find a book on quote sexual purity that I thought was up to date,
29:24 interesting, biblical, helpful, accurate. I was like, I'm just gonna write the book that I didn't think existed. Now, it comes to the topic like love, sometimes our culture gets it
29:36 right. Yeah. And sometimes our culture gets it wrong. Right. So I think a chance for our culture a time our culture got it right is in, you know, to bring it back to superheroes in Endgame
29:47 when Iron Man and sorry, folks. You've had time to see it. If you haven't seen it yet, this is on you. Iron Man willingly sacrifices his life as the hero to save half the
29:59 universe from Thanos. All these movies, billions of dollars, 10 maybe 12 years in filmmaking climaxes with the hero who's a Christ type
30:11 figure who lays down his life. Everybody celebrated that because they recognize that's what real love is when a man lays down his life for a friend.
30:23 Well, Jesus isn't just fiction like in Infinity War or Endgame. It's true. So our culture got right what it means to be a hero and what love is. But in other ways, it gets it
30:35 wrong in terms of what we talked about before. Sometimes our culture says love is to affirm however somebody identifies and feels. And if I don't affirm, I'm
30:47 a bigoted, hateful, homophobic, fill in the blank. That's example where our culture gets it wrong. Because if you love somebody, you act in a way for their
30:59 objective good emotionally, mentally, relationally, spiritually, even if they don't see it. In fact, sometimes a loving thing to do is not to
31:11 affirm what somebody believes and says. I do it all the time with my kids. That's what parents are supposed to do. And so, in the book, I'm trying to separate certain cultural
31:22 lies about freedom, about truth, about love, about identity. In fact, Zach, that's the first third of the book is just trying to rewire certain assumptions that many of us
31:34 have we don't even realize. And then in the middle of the book, I'm like, okay, now let's look at God's design for sex, God's design for marriage, God's design for singleness. And the last third of the book is like,
31:45 let's look at the thorny issues like pornography, divorce, cohabitation, LGBTQ conversation. So I think young people I just actually yesterday from a former student of
31:57 mine, she said we are she was working at a youth group with kids and they're asking questions like how far is too far? And she's like, I was able to give an answer because we talked about all this stuff when we worked
32:08 through your book, which is pretty cool.
32:10 That's really cool. And I love this concept of chasing love in the biblical perspective of love. Because something I always will say is that, you know, love's not just something you become better at. Love is someone you
32:22 become more like. And I know that you wrote this book in April of 20 23. You released a terrific book with your dad, right? Entitled Evidence for Jesus, which is really building off the book that you mentioned that your
32:31 dad wrote years and years ago. It's an accessible resource that provides answers to common questions about Jesus. And there might be somebody you talked about the relational dynamics. When relational dynamics go south in
32:42 our life, when maybe we don't have an attachment figure or a caregiver, a father who shows us the love of Christ, who gives us a better understanding then of what godly love looks like. We can sometimes
32:54 have a misrepresentation or a poor interpretation of the love of God. A lot of people view God as just cold and distant and weak and authoritarian who allows us to experience pain. And
33:06 oftentimes, hear this question a lot and I'm sure you hear this question all the time. Why do bad things then happen to good people? Why would a good loving gracious father who we're talking about heavenly father allow
33:17 these things to happen to me or happen to those around me and those that I love? Tell me about that God. That doesn't seem very loving to me, Sean. What is your response in situations like that? Because that seems to be
33:29 a wrestling match for our next generation quite a bit.
33:33 Practically, I would say that is such a good question. Thanks for asking it. May I ask of all the questions you ask about God, why you ask that 1? Now, reason I say
33:45 that, Zach, is because I think the vast majority of people who ask that question are not asking for a philosophical defense of the goodness and power of God. They want to know why
33:56 their uncle just died of cancer. They want to know why they were bullied as a kid. They want to know why this tragedy is happening before their eyes in
34:08 Israel and Gaza right now. It's personal for people.
34:12 Right.
34:12 So how we address a personal issue is very different than a philosophical or intellectual issue even though they overlap and we don't siphon them perfectly in our minds. And so I think this is where
34:24 if it's personal for them, a pastoral response is the best. Right? I mean, it says in Romans 12 15 that be happy with those who are happy, be sad
34:36 with those who are sad. Mourn with somebody. This is where you and your team doing counseling are infinitely better at this than I am but let's minister to people, listen to people, love people and be
34:48 present with people. Some of our closest friends years ago, their son died of cancer at 15. I mean, you talk about a tragedy, it's hard to top that 1. And he
35:00 said something, his name was Cody. He said, the greatest present you can give someone is your presence. Yeah. I will never forget that. Now, if somebody shifts and it's
35:12 an intellectual question and they've been in philosophy class or debating online, then I'll start to talk about things like, okay, we're assuming there's evil in the world but you can't have evil without good and you
35:24 can't have good without God. So, you thought about how this objection saying the world is broken implies that there's a way it was first made which only makes sense if there's a maker. That's when angle I'll go. I'll go
35:35 the direction of free will. God didn't make us robots, He made us to have the capacity to love. Well, if I have the capacity to love, I also have the capacity to hate.
35:47 A ton more could be said but that's the direction I would go if it was more that kind of question.
35:53 I appreciate that response because I like what you're saying that your presence is often more needed than your perspective. Catherine Wolf has put it this way. Sometimes it's the ministry of tears that is
36:05 needed before the ministry of truth. And so being able to recognize like you said, the greatest present you can give someone in moments of pain is your simple presence. And so in recognizing the
36:17 relational nutrients that you've brought up now several times, even talk about right there when there's a next gen, there's a youth, there's an adolescent, there's a young adult that comes to you that's maybe presentingShow more
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Zach Clinton
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