Skip to content Recovering From Betrayal: Understanding Boundaries, the Process of Forgiveness, & Learning to Trust Again with President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, and Best-Selling Author, Lysa TerKeurst, Ep. 237
The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
39:11 Listen to Recovering From Betrayal: Understanding Boundaries, the Process of Forgiveness, & Learning to Trust Again with President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, and Best-Selling Author, Lysa TerKeurst, Ep. 237 Recovering From Betrayal: Understanding Boundaries, the Process of Forgiveness, & Learning to Trust Again with President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, and Best-Selling Author, Lysa TerKeurst, Ep. 237 May 15 · 39 min ...more
Recovering From Betrayal: Understanding Boundaries, the Process of Forgiveness, & Learning to Trust Again with President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, and Best-Selling Author, Lysa TerKeurst, Ep. 237
May 15, 2025 · 39 min
In the words of today’s guest, none other than President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, & Best-Selling Author, Lysa Terkeurst, “The last several years have been the hardest of my life. I know the depths of marital heartbreak, and what it feels like to wrestle through healing. I also know what it feels like to be diagnosed with cancer and to wonder why God would allow so much heartbreak. My pillow has seen its fair share of tears. But I’ve also seen God move in astounding ways… not always the ways I thought He would, but I guess that’s why we are called to follow Him with faith. And at the end of each day, that’s what you’ll find me doing — going to bed while saying thankful prayers for ways I once again experienced God’s faithfulness that day, big and small. I wish with every fiber of my heart that I could erase parts of my story. But staying stuck in trying to wish something away will cause me to miss the beauty of what is… and even better… trusting God for what can be.” We hope and pray that today’s conversation would help you navigate the pain of betrayal while clinging to the hope of the gospel. Although not easy - forgiveness, boundaries, and trust are skills that can be learned and developed again! Lysa’s website: https://lysaterkeurst.com/ Proverbs31: https://proverbs31.org/ Christian Care Connect: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton May 15, 2025 · 39 min · The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
In the words of today’s guest, none other than President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, & Best-Selling Author, Lysa Terkeurst, “The last several years have been the hardest of my life. I know the depths of marital heartbreak, and what it feels like to wrestle through healing. I also know what it feels like to be diagnosed with cancer and to wonder why God would allow so much heartbreak. My pillow has seen its fair share of tears. But I’ve also seen God move in astounding ways… not always the ways I thought He would, but I guess that’s why we are called to follow Him with faith. And at the end of each day, that’s what you’ll find me doing — going to bed while saying thankful prayers for ways I once again experienced God’s faithfulness that day, big and small. I wish with every fiber of my heart that I could erase parts of my story. But staying stuck in trying to wish something away will cause me to miss the beauty of what is… and even better… trusting God for what can be.” We hope and pray that today’s conversation would help you navigate the pain of betrayal while clinging to the hope of the gospel. Although not easy - forgiveness, boundaries, and trust are skills that can be learned and developed again! Lysa’s website: https://lysaterkeurst.com/ Proverbs31: https://proverbs31.org/ Christian Care Connect: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us. ...more Show the full description Show less In the words of today’s guest, none other than President & Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, Renowned Speaker, & Best-Selling Author, Lysa Terkeurst, “The last several years have been the hardest of my life. I know the depths of marital heartbreak, and what it feels like to wrestle through healing. I also know what it feels like to be diagnosed with cancer and to wonder why God would allow so much heartbreak. My pillow has seen its fair share of tears. But I’ve also seen God move in astounding ways… not always the ways I thought He would, but I guess that’s why we are called to follow Him with faith. And at the end of each day, that’s what you’ll find me doing — going to bed while saying thankful prayers for ways I once again experienced God’s faithfulness that day, big and small. I wish with every fiber of my heart that I could erase parts of my story. But staying stuck in trying to wish something away will cause me to miss the beauty of what is… and even better… trusting God for what can be.” We hope and pray that today’s conversation would help you navigate the pain of betrayal while clinging to the hope of the gospel. Although not easy - forgiveness, boundaries, and trust are skills that can be learned and developed again! Lysa’s website: https://lysaterkeurst.com/ Proverbs31: https://proverbs31.org/ Christian Care Connect: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
168K followers
M.A. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, doctoral student in Clinical Psychology. Host of ‘The Built Different Podcast’ with guests like Kirk Cousins, Albert
168K followers
Up next Autoplay More from Zach Clinton Dr. Caroline Leaf: Managing the Mind - How to Overcome Overthinking & Reclaim Your Peace, Ep. 327 Zach Clinton
Dr. Lee Warren: How to Renew Your Mind & Rewire Your Brain - The Neuroscience of Healing, Breaking Negative Thought Patterns, & Finding Hope Again, Ep. 326 Zach Clinton
Rodney Holmstrom: Breaking the Chains of Addiction - Shifting Your Dependency, Finding Freedom in Christ, & Celebrating Recovery, Ep. 325 Zach Clinton
Dr. Monty Burks: Fighting Addiction - Moving From a Pill Culture to a Purpose Culture, Ep. 324 Zach Clinton
Ryan Miller: MEEK AS A MUSTANG - Finding the Strength to Surrender Your Wild Heart to Jesus, Ep. 323 Zach Clinton
John Cooper: HURT BY THE CHURCH, HELD BY CHRIST - Deep Suffering, Deconstruction, & Discovering the Sweetness of Christ After the Storm, Ep. 322 Zach Clinton
Baily Hager: Don’t Give Up, It Gets Better - Trusting the Comforter Through the Process of Healing, Ep. 321 Zach Clinton
Ian Simkins: Every Table An Altar - How Presence, Community, & Hospitality Can Heal a Divided, Distracted, & Lonely World, Ep. 320 Zach Clinton
Denny Thompson: Stop Playing it Safe - The Privilege of Failure, the Risk of Never Taking the Risk, & Why the Best Life Rarely Goes According to Plan, Ep. 319 Zach Clinton
Sheila Walsh: The Cost of Pretending You’re Okay - Buried Emotions, Depression, Mental Health & the Courage to Heal, Ep. 318 Zach Clinton
Mike Jarvis: Dreams Don’t Quit, People Do - Perspective, Patience, Perseverance & the Power Forged Through Waiting, Ep. 317 Zach Clinton
0:02 Life audio. Build Different is a production of the American Association of Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread the gospel, gospel, and0:12 provide mental health resources and training to people everywhere, just go to a a c c foundation dot o r g. Again, that's a a c c foundation dot org.0:24 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder that0:35 you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in life's0:47 ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope is0:59 always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold.1:09 Most marriages aren't falling apart, they're being refined. Tried and True is a scripture based marriage guide for couples who want a resilient, faith filled marriage, especially in seasons that feel ordinary,1:21 difficult, or stretched. Through 12 imperfect biblical marriages, this book shows how God uses trials to strengthen connection, not destroy it. Learn more at tried and true1:32 marriage book dot com or find tried and true everywhere1:42 Zach Clinton, your host, and each week, I come to you exclusively on the Life Audio Podcast Network. I'm proud to partner with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family friendly podcast for a new
1:53 generation. At Built Different, our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help push you past your limits and reach goals you never thought possible. Colossians 2 verse 6 says, so then just as you
2:03 receive Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen? Now let's roll.
2:16 What's going on everybody? And welcome back in to another edition of the Build Different Podcast. As always, I hope and pray that each and every 1 of you are having an incredible week. And I hope and pray that today's
2:26 conversation would just be able to instill and spark a little bit of hope, encouragement, and motivation in and through your life and hopefully onto those that you love. That being said, as always, I'll be your host
2:36 today, Doctor. Zach Clinton, joined by my cohost today. He is my best friend in the world. He's the president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, the director of the Global Center for Human Flourishing
2:48 at Liberty University. We just so happen to get to do a lot of life together. It's my favorite role that this man serves is my dad. Doctor Tim Clinton will be joining me to co host this conversation today. But hey, let
2:59 me tell you something. I know May is recognized as Mental Health Awareness Month, we've had a lot of difficult conversations on the podcast. A lot of real, raw, open, vulnerable, authentic
3:11 conversations. And I think that's what this month is all about. It's shedding a light on the darkness that so many of us, we allow culture and society's narrative that brokenness is equivalent to embarrassment or
3:23 humiliation to then lure us into this place of isolation. But what I want us to remind ourselves of is that it's okay to be authentic. We need other people in this journey that we call life. And you've heard me say it, I
3:34 think every episode in the month of May, asking for help is not a sign of weakness. Asking for help is a sign of wisdom. That being said, friends, I wanna continue to push each and every 1 of you toward that
3:45 end every day of your life because nobody, and I mean this, nobody is a stranger to suffering in the journey that we call life. Today, have
3:57 another very special guest. She is the president and the chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries. She's a renowned speaker, bestselling author of countless books such as Good Boundaries and
4:09 Goodbyes, It's Not Supposed to Be This Way, Uninvited, Forgiving What You Can't Forget, and her most recent 1 that really will kind of be the the main topic of conversation today titled,
4:20 I wanna trust you, but I don't. Her name, y'all know her, you love her, Lisa Terkirs. We're actually entitling today's conversation, recovering from betrayal, understanding boundaries,
4:32 the process of forgiveness and learning to trust again. I love how Lisa put this on her website. And this is just real, this is raw, this is how we're gonna open up the conversation because these are her
4:44 words as we embrace for what we're about to hear in terms of how do we navigate betrayal? How do we begin to trust again? How do we learn to forgive even the things that we can't forget? Because we have to
4:56 remember forgiveness and trust are 2 very different things. Yes, in order to experience reconciliation, that might take 2 people, but forgiveness only takes 1. And yes, forgiveness brings freedom to the 1 doing the
5:07 forgiving. So 1, yes, we can forgive anyone. And that's a process. That's not just instantaneous, the snap of a finger, hey, I've chosen to forgive you. No, we have to make the choice to forgive each and every day
5:19 of our lives. And we can forgive because we have already been forgiven, right? So yes, forgiveness is 1 thing, but then trust is an entirely different thing. That's what we'll be discussing about
5:30 today. When can we actually risk trusting again? And when, right, do we need to not give up on, but let something go? These are Lisa's words. Let me read them to
5:42 you as we kind of preface and set up the conversation today. She said, The last several years have been the hardest of my life. I know the depths of marital heartbreak and what it feels like to wrestle through healing. I
5:53 also know what it feels like to be diagnosed with cancer and to wonder why God would allow so much heartbreak. My pillow has seen its fair share of tears, but I've also seen God move in astounding ways.
6:05 Not always the ways I thought he would, but I guess that's why we're called to follow him with faith. And at the end of each day, that's what you'll find me doing. Going to bed while saying thankful prayers for ways I
6:17 once again experienced God's faithfulness that day, big and small. I wish with every fiber of my heart that I could erase parts of my story, but staying stuck and trying to
6:29 wish something away will cause me to miss the beauty of what is, and even better, trusting God for what can be. My friends, that being said, help my dad and I welcome our very special guest. Again,
6:41 President and Chief Visionary Officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries, renowned speaker, bestselling author, Ms. Lisa Terkirs. Lisa, our friend, hey, we are looking forward to today's conversation. Thank you so much for
6:52 joining us.
6:53 Honored to be with you.
6:54 I tell you what, we have seen God move in powerful ways across this land, across this country, across this globe, not only I would say the Unite College Campus Crusade, this Gather 25 movement, what God's doing
7:06 through Proverbs 31. We're here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 8000 women packed out in the Mabee Center. Lisa, you're on the front lines doing ministry all over this world. What are you seeing God doing for such a time as this?
7:18 Well, first of all, I think that people are coming back to the Lord, but they're making their faith their own. I don't think that they're in religious routine any longer. I think that people have
7:30 realized that it's not about having a religion, it's about having a relationship with Jesus. And I sense a deeper hunger for people to get into God's Word and for God's Word
7:41 to make an actual difference in their life. So that means not just reading it and checking it off because it's a good Christian thing to do, but rather approaching God's word with a little bit more desperation and
7:53 recognizing that we need God's word just like our body needs food and water, our soul needs daily doses of God's word. And, I know for me in my life
8:05 that sometimes when I wanna read the Bible the least is when I need to read it the most. And I'm really seeing people making a shift toward that, toward personal Bible study, I'm very grateful for that.
8:17 Lisa, I know that the old Puritans would call it the valley of vision. In other words, when you're going through hard times, you begin to see differently. And I think you go back to COVID just for a moment
8:28 and walk through everything we've been through since then, it's been a pretty tough road. People got to a place where they were filled with fear. I heard 1 Christian leader say that 75 percent of Americans
8:40 Christians were filled with fear. I as I reflected, I thought, you know, I think he's right. I mean, people have just flat out been through the fire. But, again, when you
8:52 go through a fire, you you're forced to see differently. That Chinese symbol for crisis is danger and opportunity. I guess they both somehow come together. And I
9:04 do you see that playing into all this?
9:06 I do. You know, and 1 area that I'm really passionate about stepping into a great need, And it's not because I wanna park here, but it's because I've been through a divorce
9:18 and I know how horrible it can be. I mean, it really is the most traumatic thing that I've ever been through in my life. And I've been through a lot of things.
9:30 And with everything in me, I wanted to get through that season and move on into a new season and leave all of that behind. But I can't do that because
9:42 I know that I'm called by God to step into not just a space where I can help people connect with the right therapeutic help, which I'm so thankful for AACC. We recommend AAC in the back of every single 1 of
9:54 my And I'm so grateful for that resource. But also not just the therapeutic, but also the theological wisdom. What does the Bible actually say about divorce? What does the Bible not say about
10:06 divorce? And so I'm very, very passionate to help women know the truth so that they can feel more emotional fortitude and spiritual confidence to walk through and face
10:18 some of the deepest desperation times that they'll ever experience.
10:22 I'm gonna stop this right there and jump in to say, you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors. I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation
10:31 flowing right after this. You're listening to Life Audio.
10:36 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder that
10:48 you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in life's
10:59 ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope is
11:11 always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold.
11:21 Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the daily bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts
11:33 from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The daily bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters aloud, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV,
11:44 NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play
11:56 and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace.
12:01 You know, some topics that you really dive to that I so appreciate because we talk about all the time in counseling are trust and boundaries and forgiveness. But, I mean, what you just alluded to, there's no question
12:12 that you've been on a journey of your own, miss Lisa. Right? Personally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. And, you know, from the hurts and the wounds to now this really season in this process of healing
12:23 and and wellness. Before we dive into some of those other things, I would love to hear just some of the lessons that God has taught you throughout this journey that you've been on.
12:32 Yeah. Well, 1 of the lessons is that, and I spoke about it on stage today, is, I never thought I had an issue with control until I realized, oh, I
12:44 actually have an issue with control because but it's subtle, you know, like I said, I
12:51 Like we all do Lisa's
12:52 or You know, like if we were going to a restaurant today, I would totally let you guys pick where we would go. Like I'm very laid back, very flexible. But when it comes to outcomes, I have such a hard
13:03 time releasing my hands from an outcome that I am so desperate to see God do. And so if if I'm stepping into that control
13:15 mode, really, what I'm saying is everything depends on me. Yes, I trust God. Yes, I love God. Yes, God is good. But internally, I am just as anxious and
13:27 fearful and overwhelmed as anybody who doesn't know Jesus because I am holding on and trying to do things that are outside of my ability to do. And basically, sometimes what I say
13:38 is I am unwilling to accept any other outcome than the 1 that I think is good.
13:43 And
13:44 that I think is where a lot of women are, especially women that have gone through traumatic relationships. Because we know that sometimes worst case scenarios really do happen.
13:55 Yeah.
13:56 And so when you have that mindset and that awareness, it can really feel like, no, I have to, I have to stay controlled. But then we find ourselves riddled with anxiety and
14:07 fear. Yes. And I think the direct path to anxiety and fear is straight from that mindset of I'm unwilling to accept any other outcome than the 1 that I think is good. On the other side of that
14:19 though, I've discovered instead of control, which is gonna lead me to chaos in my life, I want stewardship, which leads to peace. And stewardship means that I am
14:31 willing to release the outcome of this into the fully capable hands of the Lord and I will trust the outcome that God has for me. And the mantra is not everything depends on me.
14:43 The mantra of someone who's in stewardship is I will be responsible for that which was within my ability to manage. And my job is to be obedient to God. God's job is everything else.
14:55 I wanna press in on that a little bit more, Lisa. For those who are watching, listening right now, maybe they're in a really difficult situation, bad relationship.
15:07 You don't have to go very far into scripture to realize God made us for a relationship with him and with each other, and we're hardwired for it. And so, there's an expectation about love and being
15:18 loved. Yes. You know that loving and love being loved by someone. And there's nothing more beautiful in all the world than to be in a relationship with someone who's supposed to love you and they love you. Nothing more
15:30 painful than being in a relationship with someone who's supposed to love you and they don't love you, at least it's perceived that way or whatever.
15:38 That's right.
15:39 So in the midst of it, there's this expectation of what we are wired for, and then an outcome that's very different than that. And what it does is it decimates us. When you don't feel safe, secure, or significant with
15:51 somebody else, it's gonna throw you into total chaos. You know, what you're what you're saying is somehow you've gotta understand our press for control here, which makes me crazy.
16:02 It's what keeps me awake at 2 or 3 o'clock in the night, and I don't know what to do. I'm trying to figure out everything. I'm pushing every red button I can trying to redeem a disaster. And it's like nothing's working.
16:15 And and Lisa, go back into those moments and then maybe just keep that story, that narrative going about what you're saying here about releasing control because we freak out. And it
16:27 that we become even, I have to say this carefully, part of the problem Yeah. In that moment, don't we?
16:34 That's right. I had to come to terms in my first marriage that I could be his wife, but I could not be his savior. And I think I was spending so much time
16:46 trying to prevent him from hitting bottom because I knew that the overflow of those consequences would hit me and my kids in a pretty severe way. And so I was not only trying
16:58 to manage him because I cared about him, but I wanted to manage him because I cared deeply for my children and for myself. And I mean, I just couldn't fathom, couldn't
17:09 fathom releasing control. And I think the mindset that I was in, you know, I've since discovered in that situation, was a codependent enabler.
17:20 And
17:22 codependency is really compassion just taken a little too far. And so I used to feel like, oh no, I'm not codependent because I'm a very, very independent woman. But when I was real honest with
17:34 myself, I would look at him and I would say, I need you to be okay so I can be okay. So how can we make you okay? Because I wanna feel okay, okay? And it's that dysfunctional dance and a good
17:46 thing, compassion taken too far that becomes enabling. And that's really, I was part of the problem. I didn't realize it. I thought that I was being a good wife. And I think as Christians, we have to be really, really
17:57 careful when a woman is in that dynamic, not to tell her all the problems will be fixed if you just go home and love him more. That is great advice for someone who is in a difficult marriage
18:09 and experiencing marriage difficulties. Yeah. But when someone is in a destructive marriage, that's a whole different beast.
18:16 Well, you're talking about that tough love piece that you're moving into here. Sometimes, I know even as a counselor, if we're fixers, it's almost like a high for us. You know that? Yeah. We almost develop a messiah
18:28 complex. We can't fix everybody. You can't do that. You provide an opportunity to fix, but you can't save everybody. You can't do that. If you can't get off that juice, what that means
18:40 is then it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Zach, and that is everybody has a somebody you break all the rules for Mhmm. And at least the absolute chaos in your life. And somehow, you've gotta
18:51 put boundaries in place here. You know that? But putting them in place means you have gotta draw a line and do a tough love piece, and that doesn't feel loving. No. You know that? It almost feels antithetical to our
19:02 faith. And that in other words, God has gone to the wall for us. He's forgiven us. He's poured grace all over us. And if we don't offer that and keep extending it, then somehow we're violating principles of God or
19:13 something. And Lisa, nothing could be further from the truth.
19:16 That's right. You know, a verse that often would trip me up is when Jesus teaches that and he modeled that he laid down his life for others and we should lay down our life for others, right? And that tripped me
19:28 up for a long time. What does that really mean? I thought it meant to hyperextend everything about myself for the good of another person. And 1 day I was reading the scripture
19:40 and it dawned on me, Jesus laid down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.
19:49 Come on. Come on.
19:51 And so when we really understand that, and also when I was doing my research for my book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, my number 1 question was, is God okay with a Christian
20:03 woman drawing boundaries? And that that question really nagged at me. And so I thought, okay, I'm just gonna go into the the word, the word of God and see, does God demonstrate boundaries?
20:15 And right from Genesis 1, we see God establishing the foundation of the world using boundaries. He separated the land from the water. He separated the sky from the
20:27 the water. And so those separations are boundaries defining where 1 ends and another begins.
20:33 Yes.
20:33 Then we get into Genesis 2, and the very first recorded conversation between God and man, of all the subject matters God could have chosen, he picked the topic of a boundary. You are free to eat from
20:45 any tree in the garden, but not this 1 tree. Yep. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and there was a consequence because a boundary without a consequence is nothing but a poor suggestion. So there's a
20:56 consequence. If you eat from that tree, you'll die. Now notice how God phrases this. He starts off, you are free. You see, it's for freedom sake that we draw boundaries. We know
21:08 where the boundary lines are, then we are free to run-in between those boundary lines. It's great freedom. Otherwise, Adam would have been like, oh, is it okay to eat from this tree? What about this tree? What about this
21:19 tree? That's no freedom. That that's a terrible way to live. But when God established the boundary, it opt it allowed Adam to operate in freedom. And so, as I continued to study,
21:31 I realized in Genesis 2, there was 1 rule. There was 1 boundary given. By the time we get through Genesis 3, which is where sin enters in, and now as we head
21:43 to the law and the prophets, by the time we get to the law and the prophets, there are 600 necessary boundaries. Why? Because where sin increased, chaos increased, and where there is chaos, there
21:55 is a need for a boundary. I always say to people, some people like, oh, yeah, I don't really do boundaries. And I'll say, you don't do them or you feel like you don't need them. Yeah, I don't really need boundaries.
22:04 Okay. Totally understand. And you are very fortunate that you don't. Now, I just have 1 more question. Is there an area of chaos in your life? Because where there's an area of chaos, that's usually there's a need
22:16 for a boundary there. Now, the other important lesson that I've discovered is you cannot put boundaries on other people to try to force them, manipulate them, control them into changing.
22:27 Because if someone else is unwilling or incapable of making the necessary changes that that you feel are necessary, If they're incapable or unwilling, you will
22:39 end up trying and trying and trying, feeling so incredibly frustrated and finally throwing your hands up and saying boundaries don't work on you That's right.
22:47 For their behavior. That's right. It's like you own them. No. That that's not what's happening here.
22:52 Exactly. So what do we do? We put a boundary on ourself. Yes. And boundaries are our opportunity to have healthy conversations Yes. Of what we will and will not accept.
23:04 What we can and cannot do and what we are and are not willing to tolerate. And so really a boundary is not this big burdensome awful thing. It's my
23:16 ability to communicate, to establish where I end and another person begins, where my responsibility ends and their responsibility begins.
23:26 And this need for boundaries that you're referencing, Lisa, is really about controlling what we can control. And I think it really plays well into a lot of your previous books that there's a differentiation between
23:36 forgiveness and trust. Right? I've heard it said that trust though is a skill that we can develop. But I tell you what, when you talk about forgiving what you can't forget, forgiveness is freeing. Forgiveness is given,
23:48 but trust trust is earned. Right?
23:50 That's
23:50 right. Somebody who has experienced betrayal trauma, Lisa, how do we begin to recognize, like, how do we develop that trust again for people, especially when those wounds are still fresh, when those wounds are still
24:02 there? Yes. We place our trust in God, but what does it look like to risk trusting someone again?
24:08 Well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So you starve a relationship of trust and you starve it of vibrancy and possibly even you starve it to death. Trust is built time plus
24:19 believable behavior. So it takes a good stretch of time and repeated patterns of good behavior, trustworthy actions that will build
24:31 or even rebuild trust inside of a relationship. So, I think we have to understand sometimes when we've had our trust broken, we will we will get this odd feeling,
24:43 maybe of skepticism when we're with someone. So then the question becomes, is this a trigger from past pain?
24:49 Or
24:51 is this present day discernment that something really is wrong? And so I went to a counselor and I asked specifically, I asked her, how can I tell the difference between a trigger
25:03 from past pain or present day discernment? And she said 1 word and the 1 word caught me so off guard, but it made so much sense. She said, investigate. And I said, investigate?
25:15 I didn't even know it was like okay for a Christian world to And she goes, no, I don't mean taking it to the extreme of like stalking another person. But investigate. Ask
25:27 the questions that you need to ask to get the information that you need to get. And how they react will tell you a whole lot. If they say to you, of course, you
25:39 need to look at my phone. Of course, you need to look at my computer. Of course, you need to know where I was when you called and
25:46 I couldn't get to the phone.
25:47 Because I need to feel safe. So if their response
25:50 back to you.
25:51 That's right. So if their response is loving and understanding
25:54 Right.
25:55 Most of them, I don't need to look at their phone. I don't need to check their location. I don't need to check their computer because their response told me everything I needed to know. If on the other hand, their
26:04 response is, seriously, we're not over this yet.
26:06 Right. That's massive.
26:07 How long is it gonna take for you? Like, I'm not that person. Of course, I wouldn't do anything to you. If their response is defensiveness and even accusation back toward me, accusing me of being the crazy 1,
26:20 then there may not be a full blown fire. But where there is smoke, there is some kind of fire. Something is something
26:27 going on.
26:28 Yes. And whether it is a full blown house fire or whether it is the flicker of a birthday candle that's causing that smoke, you hold your hand even over a birthday candle and you're gonna get burned. There is something
26:38 that needs to be addressed.
26:38 There's 2 words that go together there, Lisa. Being trustworthy and trusting. That becomes the dance between 2 people who are trying to
26:50 reconcile in some way. And that's a very difficult piece. It disconnects. I like what Zach was saying about forgiveness because forgiveness typically takes 1 person.
27:02 It's my responsibility to forgive. God Christ commands me to release and let it go. It seems foreign because it's like, ah, you need to pay for what you've done to me. You
27:14 know what I'm saying? But canceling the debt is a gift to yourself for a moment, and God gives us that grace in the midst of it. Reconciliation is gonna take 2 people. That's right. That's a whole another world.
27:26 That's another planet, if you will. And people often confuse this, and this is where they get lost then, and I think their pain begins to continue to fester. How did you work through that? Just maybe on a real
27:37 personal level because that journey, that's a real journey. And by the way, it often spills over into my other maybe future relationships.
27:47 That's right.
27:47 Which becomes a burden that I begin to carry. You know, it's in my sack, if you will, and it's like, ugh.
27:53 Yeah. Well, for me, rebuilding trust or even trying to take the risk of stepping into other relationships
28:02 Yeah.
28:02 That was a hard 1. So I didn't immediately step into another relationship. Yeah. First of all, my counselor and you guys are very familiar with him, Jim Kress, he's amazing.
28:12 Bless
28:12 you. He informed me that my picker was broken. You have to be kinda careful how you say that because it could come out wrong. But my my my picker was broken. Yes. In other words, if I did not take
28:24 enough time for me to heal, then I was gonna gravitate toward what felt normal. And at that point when I got a divorce, what felt normal was dysfunction
28:35 Right.
28:36 And toxicity.
28:36 Right.
28:37 That felt normal to me. And it wasn't that it felt good. It's just that's what felt normal. And I would have gravitated back into a situation, into a dynamic like that if I didn't take time to heal. So
28:49 I took 2 years to do nothing but work on myself. And that's where real trust can start to blossom in a future relationship or in a repaired and
29:00 restored relationship is it starts with our own self awareness. We have to know, like, have I tended well to those triggers from the past? Like, have I tended well to my wounds that I
29:12 experienced? Because if I haven't, then I'm gonna continue to get triggered over and over and over and over, and I'm gonna start trying to hold someone else accountable for the sins of this previous person.
29:21 Yeah. That's exactly right.
29:22 And so, it was really important to me to work on myself. In my book, I wanna trust you, but I don't. Yeah. To help people become more self aware. I have a lot of checklists and little charts just
29:34 to kind of say, hey, read through these statements and see if you find yourself saying this or saying this or saying that. And then also, as it gets into establishing trust and repairing trust, I broke it
29:46 down into a step by step by step thing that needs to happen. And when we're when trust is being repaired with someone who has previously broken trust, while you need the self awareness and
29:58 to pursue your own healing, that's what you bring to the table. What they need to bring to the table is full disclosure. Because if they do not bring full disclosure and you don't have a
30:10 leveled out ground 0, and you start to try to repair trust, but then you make new discoveries and you realize they were holding back, that's 1 of the worst things that you can do. And sometimes that
30:22 almost makes trust impossible.
30:24 It makes sense then that a lot of the research now on what makes for a healthy marriage is whether or not you can accept influence from 1 another. That's a big
30:36 statement because you start thinking as you were listening to this conversation, it's hard to allow myself to receive influence from someone I'm not sure about or someone who has violated me in some
30:48 way and they are not willing to demonstrate a sense of fidelity back. And those patterns you were talking about, it becomes predictable. What happens is we develop these
30:59 ruts. In other words, we go back to what is known to us. People often we've typed Zach and I have had a lot of conversations about this in relationship psychology. Yes. That those patterns
31:11 or those ruts draw us because, again, we actually feel in a weird way safe because I know how to operate in that if you can whether or not it's healthy. We're not not we're not talking about
31:23 that.Show more
Comments No comments yet. Start the conversation.
Zach Clinton
Comments
Keep it kind. Comments are public.