Skip to content Gary Thomas: The Death of Entitlement - Developing the Marriage You Were Reborn to Live, Ep. 284 Jan 13 · 39 min ...more
Gary Thomas: The Death of Entitlement - Developing the Marriage You Were Reborn to Live, Ep. 284
January 13, 2026 · 39 min
In today’s episode, bestselling author, speaker, and pastor, Gary Thomas, offers a transformative look at marriage through the lens of spiritual growth and Christlike character. This episode challenges couples to move beyond comfort and entitlement toward sacrificial love, responsibility, and maturity. Gary explores how entitlement sabotages intimacy, why spiritual formation is central to a thriving marriage, and how couples can build habits that strengthen emotional connection and mutual respect. He shares practical insights on humility, conflict, and holiness that help relationships grow toward the marriage God designed, not the one culture conditions us to expect. Links: Visit Gary’s Website: https://garythomas.com/ Pick Up Your Copy of The Life You Were Reborn to Live: https://shorturl.at/vGl9a Pick Up Your Copy of Sacred Marriage: https://shorturl.at/8l8Av Looking for Clinically Excellent, Distinctively Christian Counsel & Care?: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton January 13, 2026 · 39 min · The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
In today’s episode, bestselling author, speaker, and pastor, Gary Thomas, offers a transformative look at marriage through the lens of spiritual growth and Christlike character. This episode challenges couples to move beyond comfort and entitlement toward sacrificial love, responsibility, and maturity. Gary explores how entitlement sabotages intimacy, why spiritual formation is central to a thriving marriage, and how couples can build habits that strengthen emotional connection and mutual respect. He shares practical insights on humility, conflict, and holiness that help relationships grow toward the marriage God designed, not the one culture conditions us to expect. Links: Visit Gary’s Website: https://garythomas.com/ Pick Up Your Copy of The Life You Were Reborn to Live: https://shorturl.at/vGl9a Pick Up Your Copy of Sacred Marriage: https://shorturl.at/8l8Av Looking for Clinically Excellent, Distinctively Christian Counsel & Care?: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us. ...more Show the full description Show less In today’s episode, bestselling author, speaker, and pastor, Gary Thomas, offers a transformative look at marriage through the lens of spiritual growth and Christlike character. This episode challenges couples to move beyond comfort and entitlement toward sacrificial love, responsibility, and maturity. Gary explores how entitlement sabotages intimacy, why spiritual formation is central to a thriving marriage, and how couples can build habits that strengthen emotional connection and mutual respect. He shares practical insights on humility, conflict, and holiness that help relationships grow toward the marriage God designed, not the one culture conditions us to expect. Links: Visit Gary’s Website: https://garythomas.com/ Pick Up Your Copy of The Life You Were Reborn to Live: https://shorturl.at/vGl9a Pick Up Your Copy of Sacred Marriage: https://shorturl.at/8l8Av Looking for Clinically Excellent, Distinctively Christian Counsel & Care?: https://christiancareconnect.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
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M.A. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, doctoral student in Clinical Psychology. Host of ‘The Built Different Podcast’ with guests like Kirk Cousins, Albert
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0:02 Life audio.0:03 Built Different is a production of the American Association of Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread the gospel, and provide mental health0:13 resources and training to people everywhere, just go to a a c c foundation dot o r g. Again, that's a a c c foundation dot org.0:23 Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day? The daily bible devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with0:34 scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the daily bible devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and0:46 end your day with God's word. Search for the daily bible devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today.0:57 Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton, your host, and each week, I come to you exclusively on the Life Audio podcast network. I'm proud to partner with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family1:07 friendly podcasts for a new generation. At Build Different, our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help push you past your limits and reach goals you never thought possible. Colossians 2 verse 61:17 says, so then just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen? Now let's roll.1:32 Hello, everybody. Welcome back into the built different podcast. Hope and pray that each and every 1 of you are having an incredible day. As always, I'll be your host, Doctor. Zach Clinton, joined by somebody that has
1:41 had a deep and developing impact on my life and on my own marriage. To my beautiful bride, Evelyn, Gary Thomas is going to be helping us understand what it means to continue to grow in our identity,
1:53 to continue to live with integrity, but also to deepen intimacy with God and with 1 another. Gary is a bestselling author of several books. He's a pastor, he's a speaker, books that have changed my life, The
2:05 Sacred Marriage, The Sacred Pathway, When to Walk Away. But also, he has a new book that we're gonna be unpacking today. The Life You Were Reborn to Live, dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with
2:17 God. Cannot wait to unpack this, my friend. Gary, thank you for making the commute down 15 minutes to be here at Red Rocks Church Lone Tree. We're grateful for your time, sir. Thanks for joining me.
2:26 Well, I'm honored to be here.
2:27 Thanks, Zach. Gary, you know, as we begin, you've committed a lot of your life to so many of the different things that I just mentioned in the bio in the open right there. But with all the different hats that you wear in
2:36 this particular season of life, I'm interested. This is more of like a legacy minded season. What is something that you're most excited about right here, right now?
2:45 I'm finding an increasing joy just focusing on exalting Jesus, helping people get close to Jesus. I'm sort of, you know, in a stage of life closer to your father than you, for sure. And
2:58 being freed from having to find my own way or make my own mark, just having a passion saying, you know, it's all about Jesus. We're all gonna be forgotten a couple hundred years from now. What can we do to
3:10 exalt Jesus, to help people draw near to Jesus, and to focus on the name of Jesus?
3:15 You know, it's interesting. That's something it's a message that my dad often instills in my heart is so often we spend a lot of our lives being first, right? Paving away, trying to have impact or influence, but we
3:26 neglect just simply being faithful, making it all about Jesus, keeping the main thing the main thing. Gary, as I mentioned, you've committed the majority of your life to helping people grow in intimacy with God and with
3:37 1 another. And I'd love to hear just upfront, what is a simple kind of pathway to really continue to grow in intimacy? Because 1 thing you and I know is this, as we sit down with couples and we sit down with
3:49 people in marriages and different relationships, love can be complex. And a lot of people end up losing at love. What are some of the contributing factors that you think really pull people away from
4:01 the intimacy with 1 another?
4:03 Well, I think the focus of this book kind of answers your question, and that is we have to call people to the truth. Calling people to the truth is calling people to Jesus. He says, I'm the way, the truth, and the
4:14 life. He calls Satan the father of lies. And so often, our disconnect with each other and our disconnect with God is that we're accepting a falsehood. And then we're frustrated when the falsehood doesn't
4:26 prove satisfying. Yes. A key verse for me is Romans 12 2. When Paul says, don't conform to the pattern of this word world. That word that we translate world is
4:38 aeon in Greek. It could be age. It could be generation. Paul is warning us that it's a tragedy for those who have been washed in Christ, filled with the Holy
4:50 Spirit, to become good little citizens of the world. But that's what this world's agenda is. Don't conform to the pattern of this world. It wants to turn us into these good little citizens of the world. You will
5:02 think this way. You will believe this. You will value this. You will prioritize that. This is how you were reborn to live an entirely new life. And so you are transformed, and that begins by the renewing of your
5:14 mind, which is why I love counselors. I think mental transformation isn't everything. You still have to practice it. But you know this. If you believe a lie,
5:26 you'll live a lie. And so it has to start with what is the truth? What am I gonna give my life to? If you follow a lie, everything goes downhill from there.
5:36 You know, you're talking really second Corinthians 10 5, taking every thought captive, making those thoughts obedient to Christ, which then, once we recognize and we kind of reflect on those lies, we can replace them
5:46 with God's truth. That's Philippians 4 8. Whatever is true, noble, just, pure, lovely, admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on these things. But Gary, you mentioned in this book particularly, and
5:57 you're talking about how identity is always received from the outside. Someone either taught us something, spoke something over us, and we began to believe that false narrative or the lie of the enemy. You talk about
6:07 dismantling 12 lies particularly. Any particular lies in here that you think people struggle with more often than not?
6:15 I think 1 of the biggest lies of our generation is the lie of entitlement. Most of us don't think of ourselves as entitled. But when you look at what
6:26 scripture says is the baseline for what we should expect, it's astonishing how entitled I believe all of us are. And it really messes up our relationship with God. It messes up our
6:38 relationship with each other. Paul puts the bar very low. First Timothy 6 8, he says, if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.
6:50 Jesus said in John 16 33, in this world, you will have trouble. Yes. And what I found, if people have trouble, they're thinking, God isn't doing his part. How come I'm having trouble? I you know, I've given
7:02 to the Lord. I offer my services. I've given him my heart. I financially support the church. Like, they're surprised that they have trouble. And we talk about food and clothing. What kind of food? What kind of
7:14 clothing? And how big of a house goes on to that? My life was changed with the story from Theodore Dostoevsky, famous novelist. Maybe 1 of the best of all time.
7:25 Wrote in the twentieth century. A lot of people are familiar with Crime and Punishment, Brothers Karamazov and whatnot. He almost didn't get to write any of those novels. Because when he was in his twenties, he was with
7:37 a group of other writers. They were just doing non fiction pamphlets and whatnot. He hadn't written any of his fiction. And he was arrested for what the Russian government called anti government activities and sentenced
7:48 to a firing squad. So here he's lined up in his twenties, literally looking down the gun barrel of the gun that would end his life, he thought in
7:59 seconds. And he's got to be this is it. Short life. Didn't accomplish anything I set out to or really wanted to, and it's over. We don't know why, but by some reason,
8:12 the government sent in a last minute reprieve. And he was sentenced to 4 years in a Siberian labor camp. We kind of joke about a Siberian labor camp being the worst place imaginable, because
8:24 it kind of is. I mean, it's 9 months of winter. Wow. Working 7 days a week, there are no weekends, no holidays. It's brutal, and it's cold, and it's vicious.
8:36 But he had this sweet spirit, and he would refer to it in some of his novels and and his other writings because he didn't compare a Siberian labor camp to living in Santa
8:47 Barbara. He compared it to, I should be dead, And I'm alive. And so I'm even in this place that would make so many people bitter. I'm glad I'm in this place than where I thought I was
8:59 gonna go. And Zach, if we could see what we deserve because of our sin, facing the wrath of God, if we could realize what God saved us from, if we
9:11 could see into a future without God like he looked into those gun barrels, we would feel so rescued and so grateful. We would live, in my wife's words, with astonishment instead of
9:22 entitlement. God, I deserve this, and you give me that. If we could imagine what life would be without the hope of Jesus' death on our behalf, life without the Holy Spirit filling us and convicting us
9:34 and comforting us and counseling us. If we realize what we really deserve, it would be impossible for us to feel entitled because the Bible is honest. Like I said, first Timothy
9:46 six:eight, if we have food and clothing, that's that. Genesis 3 16 says, relationships are going to be broken and difficult. We're told in first Corinthians 15 that
9:58 unless Jesus returns, we're going to get sick and we're going to die. We're told in Romans 7, sin is going to be an ongoing struggle that will war against us, that we're going to have to struggle with. We're told by
10:09 Jesus that nonbelievers will persecute us. The Bible has been very honest. It's not gonna be an easy life to be a believer. You're gonna face this, this, this, and this. That's not all gonna be fixed in
10:21 this life. And yet, we have this sense of entitlement that it's not enough that we're saved. It's not enough that we're given the Holy Spirit. We want a certain kind of lifestyle. We want all of our relationships
10:33 to be easy. We want sin and temptation to be behind us. And so we feel like God hasn't been fair. The reality is he hasn't been fair. Just in the opposite way that we
10:45 think. He's been more than generous, more than gracious. And realizing my level of entitlement just gave me a heart that's filled with worship and
10:56 gratitude and thankfulness for what Jesus has done already instead of being upset that, but he hasn't yet done this. He hasn't answered that prayer. I don't yet have that. All
11:08 of that is entitlement. And my word is, when entitlement drops, happiness rises. It's entitlement that makes us miserable in our marriages, in our parenting, in
11:20 our walk with God.
11:21 I'm gonna stop this right there and jump in to say, you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors. I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation
11:31 flowing right after this. You're listening to Life Audio.
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13:19 Now I was just thinking, as you're talking about entitlement, like you said, it has several implications, and it begins to deter us away not just from intimacy with God, but even our spouses, like you said, even our
13:30 friendships. Because entitlement's about what can I get? Right. What can I gain? Rather than, like, what do I have to offer and what can I give? And I think that goes into the conversation about identity even further
13:41 because when we have a proper understanding of who we are, like you said, then I have a better understanding of who God is, then all of a sudden, it unlocks the door to gratitude. And there is a connection. It's
13:53 funny. We had a conversation just yesterday with Ben Higgins, wrote a book, Alone in Plain Sight, and we're talking about connectivity. And he said that there was a connection between gratitude and intimacy. And so I
14:05 would love to ask you, if gratitude was the key, how might that open the door then to intimacy in a whole different way than we've ever experienced before with God and with others?
14:16 Because our eyes are filled up with what God has already done rather than closed and focused on what we want him to do that he hasn't yet done. Wow. See, entitlement is this thinking that That's
14:28 good. God should do this. God is supposed to do that if God really cared for me. I've seen entitlement turn people away from the Lord in so many different ways as a pastor. Say you've
14:39 got a late 30 something single that wants to be married. I know a lot of 30 something singles, they're happy being single. I'm saying 1 that wants to be married. They've lived life the right way. They haven't slept
14:51 around. They're financially responsible, good conversationalists, kept themselves in shape, and they wouldn't compromise by dating a non believer. And so they
15:03 think, okay, I've done all that. I've saved myself. I've set myself up. God hasn't brought somebody for me to marry. He hasn't done his job. I did my job. I lived a certain way, but God hasn't provided
15:15 me someone to marry. And so instead of running to God, they're angry at God. Or I've seen parents who said, Hey, Proverbs says raise up a child in the way he should go. We did that with 4 of our kids. We homeschooled 2
15:27 of them. We brought all of them. We brought them to church. We did this. 2 out of them aren't following the Lord. We did our job. God hasn't done his. I've even seen people blame
15:39 their sin on God when they're entitled. I should be able to spend all of my money, not save for a rainy day expense, run up the credit card bills, and then when it comes
15:50 due, 1 prayer, Okay, God, I realize I haven't been that responsible, but I need you to miraculously provide. And if God doesn't immediately wipe out my debt and make things okay, he's not true, because I've asked him.
16:01 He's supposed to be my provider. This is extreme, but I've heard it. A guy that says he's upset because he got a DUI. And he would say, well, I wasn't really that
16:13 drunk. And I don't think I've hardly ever done that before. And I know people who don't follow the Lord that do that every weekend. And so here's 1 time I mess up a little bit, I tithe. I go to
16:25 church. Couldn't God cut me a break? Why did God let me get caught? And so there's this sense again that God isn't treating them fairly. So there's no gratitude. There's bitterness. There's frustration.
16:37 There's anger. Because they're going off what they think God should do, not what Scripture tells us. This is what Jesus clearly says we can expect. It's what Paul says we could expect. If we
16:48 compare those 2, God has treated us far better than we deserve.
16:52 Gary, as we continue on, and we're talking more about just entitlement, and just the lies that we're trying to dismantle throughout our lives, you know, I'm thinking about the relationships that we have with others. I'm
17:03 thinking about, a relationship that we have with God. And I'm interested, you know, when it comes to just biblical intimacy. We talked about gratitude, but there's a lot of service, and you talk a lot
17:15 about sacrifice. It's funny. My wife, Evelyn, and I were joining into this going through the study of the sacred marriage throughout our life group at Thomas Heard Baptist Church. Some of our best friends, other young
17:25 married couples, just investing in our lives as we invest in theirs. And as we read through that incredible resource that you provided years ago, it's just opening our eyes to the idea that love and
17:37 intimacy in marriage and relationships are really more about holiness than they are about our own happiness. Mhmm. Because it's about what God can do through an individual. It's about what God can do through you. It's
17:47 about shaping us and pruning us. Speak to just the concept again of relationships and how holiness should really be at the core of all
17:55 of it. Yeah. Again, if we go by what Jesus tells us to do, Matthew 6 33, seek first the kingdom of God. So I'm not living for myself, my own enrichment, my own fame.
18:07 People appreciating me because I look younger than I am. I know I I don't. I'm just saying. That's the focus of our culture. So I'm putting God's priority above my own. And he said, and his righteousness
18:19 and his promises and all these things will be added unto you as well. And I found that most marriages break down because they lack service and sanctification. Wow. They've become so
18:31 selfish. How can I get her to do that? How can I get him to not do that? We're trying to turn our spouse into a love me like I want to be love machine instead of 2 people coming together and
18:42 saying, what can God do through our relationship? What unique gifts has he given us? What calling? What resources? What platform? So instead of why don't you do this for me? The couple say,
18:54 hey, why don't we do this for God? And that service carries marriages forward because I think it's selfishness that suffocates marriages. And then when you get into sanctification,
19:07 it's it's so key here. And a lot of people think sanctification is avoiding sin, which is true. If a guy is angry, if he's looking at porn, that's gonna have a negative
19:18 impact on his marriage. It's not a marital issue. It's a personal issue that's gonna negatively impact his marriage. If a woman is materialistic or negative and critical, it's not a marital issue,
19:31 but it's going to negatively impact her marriage in very severe way. But I would say sanctification is also about the positive things. I love the book of Colossians chapter 3. Paul tells us to take
19:43 off anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, line. Earlier, he talks about sexual immorality. So you remove those things.
19:54 Okay. Most of those things, you know as a counselor issues that assault marriages. And here's the other part where we don't go far enough. Then he says, put on compassion,
20:07 kindness, gentleness, patience, and love. And I would just ask anybody listening to us or watching us, do you think a marriage will
20:19 improve if 2 people are earnestly growing in compassion and kindness and gentleness and patience and love. It's gonna
20:31 bless their marriage like nothing else. And so I I I know the subtitle became a little bit controversial. What if God designed marriage to make us holy more than to make us happy? But
20:42 I go back to John Wesley's statement. I've never met anybody truly happy who's not pursuing holy. Because it's our sin that makes us miserable.
20:52 Yes.
20:53 It's our sin that pulls us apart. If you're not dealing with your anger, you're pushing your loved ones away. If you have a judgmental spirit, who wants to be around you?
21:04 They don't feel accepted. They don't feel loved. If you're harsh instead of gentle, if you're impatient instead of patient, all of these things are devastating to the relationship. And so in
21:16 pursuing holiness, we're gonna become happier and happier. It's been true in my marriage, and I think it's true in just about every marriage that tries it.
21:25 Absolutely. You know, and as we continue to unpack that book together just in our life group, it's really pruning our hearts. I always tell people that marriage revealed to me just how selfish I really was.
21:36 Oh, yeah. It's a
21:37 giant That's it. You have to get out of the way. You have to serve 1 another. Like you say, you have to sacrifice. You have to be sanctified in Christ. And as scripture says, the heart is deceitful above all else. In
21:48 other words, in my opinion, my translation here for a moment, we're naturally going to pursue happiness. What makes me happy? But we need other people to come alongside of us and to reveal things about ourselves that
22:00 maybe we couldn't see through our own eye to make us holy in this life. And oftentimes, that can be found through a significant other, through a marriage, through a friendship, whatever that looks like, just the
22:10 accountability. Know, Gary, I'm just thinking for a moment.
22:13 Can I say something Please? On that? Because I love where you're going. For me, pursuing holiness changes what makes me happy.
22:21 There you go.
22:22 She's an example with my wife. I may have been the most selfish person in the world when I got married. I was 22. I was filled with, I wanna get married because she's gonna do this, this, and this, and I'll get this,
22:31 this, and this, and all of that. God has so changed my heart over 41 years of marriage that I can honestly say my mom's of greater happiness is when I'm able to anticipate 1 of my wife's needs
22:44 and meet it. She's an extremely healthy eater. When I'm traveling alone, there really isn't a restaurant I can't eat at. Lisa will only want to eat at maybe 10 percent of them.
22:55 Healthy, farm to table, non GMO, organic, gluten free, all this stuff. And so when we're traveling, she'll often go to health food stores.
23:07 And she creates these, you know, I don't know, this green stuff with chia seeds in there and and all of that. And she kept doing it. And so she'd forget the spoons because, you know, you're creating
23:19 your own bowl there. And I started doing that a couple times, and so I started packing my backpack with plastic spoons. If you look at my backpack right now, I could pull out 3 or 4 plastic spoons.
23:31 So 1 time she said, oh, I forgot a spoon. I said, I got you. I reached in my backpack, gave it to her. She goes, do you just sit up thinking of ways to please me? And I said, you know what? I I kinda do. Yeah. But, Zach,
23:43 it sounds weird. It's a little bit selfish because I get a lot of joy when I can anticipate her need and meet it. Now, she would want me to say that she's up the
23:55 game. Instead of a plastic spoon, it's gonna be a bamboo spoon. But, you know, but just recognizing here's a need, then she can help me meet that need even better.
24:05 Yes. That's the idea. When you're pursuing what makes you holy, it often, in turn, makes you the most happy as well. Yeah.
24:12 Because kindness I mean, it oh, boy. If people would just think, what makes you feel better? An act of kindness or an act of selfishness?
24:23 Connecting intimately because you share something where you're vulnerable or lying to your spouse. Right. Finding a way to give to your spouse or manipulating your spouse
24:35 to take from your spouse. If we would just step back Yes. It's not even a debate. It's it's not a contest. But we just got that natural person. Love me like I wanna be loved. Do what I want you
24:47 to do. Don't do what I don't want you to do. And we make ourselves miserable. Yeah. And and what's been wonderful when Lisa and I are working with a couple we just do pastoral counseling. We're not
24:59 therapeutic counselors. But so often afterwards, we say, yeah, let's just skip that. You know the couple that had an affair, 1 is doing I mean, because you see the misery it causes
25:11 Yeah. And you realize how holiness protects our happiness. Holiness leads to joy. Sin leads to regret. And again, I want to stress, not just sin
25:23 of doing the wrong thing, but sin of not growing in the right things.
25:28 Wow. You know, it's interesting. Something that God has really placed on my heart, my dad's heart recently, is a lot of the the research and the literature around human flourishing, and the different pathways that can
25:40 help us flourish in life. And you've nailed just a couple of them already in kindness and gratitude, but also forgiveness, also connectivity and community. It's fascinating because really the flourishing life is the
25:52 faith filled life. You know, Gary, we've talked a little bit about selfishness and entitlement and how that can rob us of our deeper connection with God and other people. But another thing that comes to
26:03 mind is not just selfishness, but also speed, the pace and the pressures of life, Gary. I'm just looking at, you know, a cell phone here for a moment. We live in such a preoccupied culture and society that I
26:15 think it robs us of those intimate moments with 1 another and with God. And I just would be interested in hearing from your pastoral counseling experience, sitting down with couples, How have you even seen some of the
26:26 technology advancements and all the heightened distractions in culture today rob us of that intimacy we were created for?
26:32 I would go a little bit deeper Yeah. And say, the reason speed has a hold on us is because we're pursuing the wrong things. We don't believe what the Bible says will make us happy. Proverbs 16
26:44 16 says, wisdom is better than gold, and understanding is better than silver. Zach, if we were to go into churches and ask them, if I look at your life and your effort, are you
26:56 focused more on trying to become richer, saving up for your retirement number, or are you more concerned about becoming wiser? If we were to talk to a lot of the women, are you more concerned
27:08 about looking younger than you are or becoming wiser than you are? If we talk to a lot of the younger people, do you think happiness comes from being entertained more often or
27:20 building your mind toward wisdom? It's 1 of those lies where I don't think people believe that God says when then he says in Proverbs 4 that wisdom will cherish cherish
27:32 wisdom. She'll honor you. She'll put a garland around your head. She'll lift you up. She will exalt you. I don't think we believe that. We're we're after the money. We're after the physical
27:43 pressure. And when I'm living to look younger than I am, I'm living to impress others. And that's a I mean, that's a lot of work. It's a lot of
27:54 effort. When I'm living to become wiser, I'm living so that I can serve others. Why do we want to be wise? So that we could be a fountain of wisdom for others. So instead of trying to impress others, you're trying to
28:06 serve others. So I I think if we would live by biblical values of service, growing in wisdom, a lot of the things that we're chasing for, we just
28:18 stop we just stop that. It it doesn't matter what people say about us. It doesn't matter what they're pursuing. A passage from Acts
28:29 it's later in Acts. I think it might be 26. That might be wrong. That just really shaped my life is when Paul appeared before Agrippa the second in Bernice. And
28:42 Agrippa comes in as this larger than life figure. He was good at sucking up to Rome. So he had a couple decades ahead of living the cushiest life, the life most of us want Yeah. Where everybody was
28:53 impressed by him. He had the power to kill people or set them free. He had the money. He lived in the best places. He was esteemed and respected. He was not a godly man. Bernice, a
29:05 lot of people don't realize that, wasn't actually his wife. She was his sister, but they lived together. And, yeah, there were rumors. Yeah. I mean, it was usually kind of a mess up. And so you bring in the apostle Paul.
29:17 This is months before he dies. Emaciated. If he took off his shirt, you'd vomit looking at his back. He'd received the 40 lashes minus 1 5 times. Wow.
29:30 No money. He smells. He's coming from the dungeon. I mean, the guy looks pathetic. And the pharisees are trying to get Paul out saying, rid the earth of him. He's not fit to live. Which
29:42 so the popular claim is Paul isn't fit to live, which I think is the dumbest opinion in the pantheon of dumbest opinions. How many of us wish Paul had written twice what he did?
29:54 If I wanted any man to have a longer life Yeah.
29:56 It's Paul.
29:57 It would be the apostle Paul. And they're saying, no. We want to grip it to to end it. And so you would look at that picture and you would say, Paul has lost. It's a pathetic life. He's gonna die.
30:09 Agrippa has all the power and fame. And yet you go forward 2000 years. I don't think this is hyperbole. I don't think a minute goes by in the world when Paul's words aren't being
30:20 read, memorized, studied, or preached on. You know, think about it. Mean So true. When I stand up in a church and I say, said, everybody knows who I'm talking about. If I stand up at a at
30:32 a public university, as well as Agrippa the second said, everybody's like, who's Agrippa? Right. The only reason we know about Agrippa second is because of this
30:44 interaction with the apostle Paul, who we thought had lost. And and that's the power of the gospel. We focus on a life that is rich toward God, the things that God values,
30:56 achieving the the earthly glory and the earthly beauty and the earthly power wipes us out,
31:08 and it goes it dies when we do. But living for eternal goods, exalting Jesus' name instead of our own, that's what will have impact thousands of years from
31:20 now. People won't remember us like they remembered Paul, but God will. And if we're living for that, well done, my good and faithful servant, that's what we want to hear. Not what people say about us on X, not how
31:32 many books people buy. It's that 1 person's opinion, you did good. What I gave you, good job.
31:40 That's right. The aim is not to impress others. The aim or the ambition, first Thessalonians 4 11, is to live a quiet life, to live a faithful life, to serve other people with every day that we have
31:51 on this side of eternity. I did just want to ask another question, just unpacking this 1, but because I do sit across from a lot of people, Gary, who they're in difficult marriages, difficult relationships, they're in
32:03 for a tough go, and, you know, there is such a thing as loving people through hardship. Right? Perseverance. And there needs to be the question that's asked to someone like you, sir, how do we decipher the difference
32:14 between tough and toxic
32:17 in marriages? Yeah. Well, I think especially marriage. You know, I've written about abuse. I did the book When to Walk Away, and I've come out saying I don't want the church to
32:28 encourage women to stay in toxic or abusive marriages that are destroying their souls. Certainly, that is destroying their bodies. James 3 2 says, we all stumble in many ways.
32:40 Nobody gets to marry the fourth member of the Trinity. That person doesn't exist. So we're gonna be hurt by each other. We will hurt each other. But there's a difference. I think the line is safety.
32:52 Right? And I think safety and sanity are 2 things. When you've got a toxic person who makes you feel like you are losing your mind with lies, with manipulation,
33:04 cheating on you, gaslighting you when you're seeing what's true just to keep you there as a tool of manipulation, Zach, I know you've seen this in the counseling room. The destruction it
33:15 does Yeah. Is horrific. It keeps them from their call to seek first the kingdom of God. They lose all sense of self confidence. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Why would I I share my faith? I I
33:27 don't have anything to give. I don't have anything to to offer to others. I I I man, I've spent my life trying to help marriages grow and and stay
33:39 together. When 2 people are repentant and surrender to the Holy Spirit, I've seen God forgive some of the worst offenses imaginable and use the pathway of
33:50 forgiveness and repentance to help them grow. But I think we make an idol out of marriage when we allow it to be used as a vehicle to destroy
34:02 people. And I'll just be honest. Early on, like when I first wrote Sacred Marriage, I just think I was naive. I hadn't served as a pastor in the kinds of churches where I serve at now Yeah. Where I didn't realize
34:14 there are some people who get off on being evil, who enjoy manipulating. They don't want to have a healthy marriage where they encourage each other, where they love each other, where they serve each other. They see
34:26 marriage as a platform to abuse because it's a unique platform that gives them power to do that. I think as Christians, we have to stand against evil. Yes. And and so
34:38 when we try to preserve a platform that has become a platform for evil, that's when I think we've gone too far. And and and there's a chapter in there that may shock people
34:50 most, the lie of family first. I look. Again, I've spent my life trying to help people focus on their marriage and grow in their marriage. But it's
35:02 shocking how Jesus warns us that sometimes faith will come between a husband and wife. Yes. Faith will come between a parent and a child. And when that happens, Jesus says, you always choose
35:14 faith. Mhmm. We can make an idol out of our family. And and and I think earlier on when I was much younger, it was a great call that people were ignoring the call to prioritize marriage, ignoring the call to
35:26 prioritize parenting. But I do think there was, like, a 20 year period there where we went from that to the opposite extreme Yeah. Of of almost idolizing it. And
35:37 so single people who weren't married felt like second class citizens in the church.Show more
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Zach Clinton
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