Skip to content Breaking the Silence: Finding Lasting Freedom from Pornography Addiction, with Nick Stumbo, Ep. 207 Jan 7 · 46 min ...more
Breaking the Silence: Finding Lasting Freedom from Pornography Addiction, with Nick Stumbo, Ep. 207
January 7, 2025 · 46 min
Nick Stumbo is the Executive Director of Pure Desire, a ministry that actually helped him and his wife find a way out and healing from his own porn addiction. In this honest, unflinching conversation, Nick joins Zach Clinton to explain the challenges involved in overcoming the shame and brokenness of porn use. They examine the different wounds and the peripheral damage that can occur with a spouse or a mate, and explain why both partners in a relationship matter as a journey of recover begins. Nick offers unique firsthand perspective on how this can be an unspoken problem within the church. Through his own powerful testimony, Nick reminds us that asking for help doesn’t make us weaker believers. Real freedom from behavior driven by secrecy and shame can only be found by bringing it into the light. Listen and be encouraged as you start the new year, with new goals and resolutions, and share it with someone you care about. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton January 7, 2025 · 46 min · The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
Nick Stumbo is the Executive Director of Pure Desire, a ministry that actually helped him and his wife find a way out and healing from his own porn addiction. In this honest, unflinching conversation, Nick joins Zach Clinton to explain the challenges involved in overcoming the shame and brokenness of porn use. They examine the different wounds and the peripheral damage that can occur with a spouse or a mate, and explain why both partners in a relationship matter as a journey of recover begins. Nick offers unique firsthand perspective on how this can be an unspoken problem within the church. Through his own powerful testimony, Nick reminds us that asking for help doesn’t make us weaker believers. Real freedom from behavior driven by secrecy and shame can only be found by bringing it into the light. Listen and be encouraged as you start the new year, with new goals and resolutions, and share it with someone you care about. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us. ...more Show the full description Show less Nick Stumbo is the Executive Director of Pure Desire, a ministry that actually helped him and his wife find a way out and healing from his own porn addiction. In this honest, unflinching conversation, Nick joins Zach Clinton to explain the challenges involved in overcoming the shame and brokenness of porn use. They examine the different wounds and the peripheral damage that can occur with a spouse or a mate, and explain why both partners in a relationship matter as a journey of recover begins. Nick offers unique firsthand perspective on how this can be an unspoken problem within the church. Through his own powerful testimony, Nick reminds us that asking for help doesn’t make us weaker believers. Real freedom from behavior driven by secrecy and shame can only be found by bringing it into the light. Listen and be encouraged as you start the new year, with new goals and resolutions, and share it with someone you care about. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Series The Built Different Podcast with Zach Clinton
168K followers
M.A. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, doctoral student in Clinical Psychology. Host of ‘The Built Different Podcast’ with guests like Kirk Cousins, Albert
168K followers
Up next Autoplay More from Zach Clinton Dr. Caroline Leaf: Managing the Mind - How to Overcome Overthinking & Reclaim Your Peace, Ep. 327 Zach Clinton
Dr. Lee Warren: How to Renew Your Mind & Rewire Your Brain - The Neuroscience of Healing, Breaking Negative Thought Patterns, & Finding Hope Again, Ep. 326 Zach Clinton
Rodney Holmstrom: Breaking the Chains of Addiction - Shifting Your Dependency, Finding Freedom in Christ, & Celebrating Recovery, Ep. 325 Zach Clinton
Dr. Monty Burks: Fighting Addiction - Moving From a Pill Culture to a Purpose Culture, Ep. 324 Zach Clinton
Ryan Miller: MEEK AS A MUSTANG - Finding the Strength to Surrender Your Wild Heart to Jesus, Ep. 323 Zach Clinton
John Cooper: HURT BY THE CHURCH, HELD BY CHRIST - Deep Suffering, Deconstruction, & Discovering the Sweetness of Christ After the Storm, Ep. 322 Zach Clinton
Baily Hager: Don’t Give Up, It Gets Better - Trusting the Comforter Through the Process of Healing, Ep. 321 Zach Clinton
Ian Simkins: Every Table An Altar - How Presence, Community, & Hospitality Can Heal a Divided, Distracted, & Lonely World, Ep. 320 Zach Clinton
Denny Thompson: Stop Playing it Safe - The Privilege of Failure, the Risk of Never Taking the Risk, & Why the Best Life Rarely Goes According to Plan, Ep. 319 Zach Clinton
Sheila Walsh: The Cost of Pretending You’re Okay - Buried Emotions, Depression, Mental Health & the Courage to Heal, Ep. 318 Zach Clinton
Mike Jarvis: Dreams Don’t Quit, People Do - Perspective, Patience, Perseverance & the Power Forged Through Waiting, Ep. 317 Zach Clinton
0:02 Life audio. Build different is a production of the American Association of Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread the gospel, gospel, and0:12 provide mental health resources and training to people everywhere, just go to a a c c foundation dot o r g. Again, that's a a c c foundation dot org.0:23 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder that0:35 you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in life's0:47 ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope is0:59 always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold.1:09 Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the daily bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted1:20 podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The daily bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters aloud, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions1:31 like ESV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible
1:43 app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace.
1:49 Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton, your host. And each week, I come to you exclusively on the Life Audio Podcast Network. I'm proud to partner with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family
2:00 friendly podcasts for a new generation. At Built Different, our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help push you past your limits and reach goals you never thought possible. Colossians 2 verse 6
2:11 says, so then just as you received Christ Jesus as lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen? Now let's roll.
2:20 What's going on everybody? And welcome back in to this week's edition of the Built Different Podcast. I'll be your host, Zach Clinton. As always, I hope
2:31 and pray each and every 1 of you had a blessed weekend and having a great start to your week. Hey, again, I know I mentioned this last episode, but happy New Year. I hope and pray that 20 25 is your best year yet. I hope
2:42 it's a year of growth. I hope it's a year of development. I hope it's a year of prosperity for you and for all of those you love. But something that we know is that to create change in this life, to see anything good
2:53 come about in our lives, it is going to require hard work and it is going to require effort. I know a lot of you have New Year's resolutions. You have big goals, dreams, and aspirations for 20 25. And I just wanna remind
3:04 you that my friends, anything worth value in this life is going to come at a cost. Today, we're gonna be talking about 1 of the biggest issues, 1 of the biggest challenges I believe facing the big c church today, but
3:15 also I believe it's a goal and I believe it's a dream and I believe it's a resolution for a lot of our listeners out there today. It's gonna be talking about how do we actually begin to overcome maybe the chains that
3:24 hold us in bondage specifically as it relates to pornography addiction or sexual addiction at large? My friends, this is such a big issue, such a big topic that I think is just so
3:36 necessary to address. And we are so grateful that during today's conversation, we're gonna be hearing a powerful testimony. 1 of grace, 1 of forgiveness, and 1 of freedom. Joining us today is Nick
3:47 Stumbo. Nick is the executive director of Pure Desire Ministries, an organization dedicated to providing hope and recovery from sexual brokenness. A third generation pastor, he began his ministry at East Hills Alliance
3:59 Church in Kelso, Washington, serving as lead pastor for over a decade. During this time, he confronted his own addiction to pornography. Through Pure Desires counseling and group ministries, he and his wife, Michelle,
4:11 found healing. This personal transformation led him to establish Pure Desire groups within his church fostering a culture of grace and recovery. Nick is also an author having written setting us free and safe,
4:23 creating a culture of grace in a climate of shame. He and Michelle reside in Oregon with their 4 children. Nick, my friend, I'm excited for this 1. Thank you so much for joining me today.
4:32 Hey, Zach. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on.
4:36 Nick, really looking forward to our conversation and just getting the opportunity to know you a little bit better to hear more about your story and your testimony personally, as well as dive into, yes, a sensitive topic,
4:46 but 1 that I believe is 1 of the biggest challenges facing the big c church today. But before we get there, for some of our audience members who maybe don't know a lot about Pure Desire Ministries, share with us some of
4:58 the incredible things that God is doing and the ways in which he is working in this impactful organization, mission and ministry itself.
5:05 Absolutely. Pure Desire was started by doctor Ted Roberts, who wrote the book Pure Desire in the late 19 nineties. Some of your listeners might be familiar with that. At the time, it was 1 of the only books out there for
5:17 Christian men along with Every Man's Battle. And it was just a ministry of the local church. But as God continued to use it to change lives and others were hearing about it, Ted felt called to make it an independent
5:28 nonprofit. And so that was in 2007, that he took it from the church to take it to all churches. And that really remains the heartbeat of our ministry, is we want to help men and women in the church who are
5:40 battling with all kinds of sexual brokenness find that freedom and lasting freedom in Christ is possible. And it's rooted in community, in small groups that are happening at a local church
5:52 level. And so we have over 1200 churches around the country that are running some kind of Pure Desire group, as well as we run online groups because we know that many people, 1200 churches sounds wonderful
6:03 until you plot that on a map of the US and realize, oh, there's no churches within a 5 hour radius for some people. And so we have about 150 online groups that launch every year, so that people
6:15 from all over the world can find a safe, confidential place to walk through a very intentional healing process that provides accountability, yes, but far more than accountability. You're doing a deep
6:27 dive into your whole story and into everything driving your behavior, and we have found that really creates the lasting freedom. So a groups based ministry, and then on the other side, we have about 15 counselors
6:39 that work on our team and provide pastoral counseling through secure video for people all over the world. And so that's really the 2 dynamics of our ministry, the groups and the counseling, and then all of the
6:50 resources that are needed for those 2 environments.
6:54 I'll tell you what, Nick. God is doing something special in and throughout Pure Desire. And I think we need ministries like this for such a time as this because as many have recognized and really identified, we're living
7:06 in a porn demic that has spread rapidly throughout our culture, our country, and our society, and really our world today. Came across some stats recently that have recently said that a projected over 30000000 Americans
7:17 struggle with problematic sexual behavior if not addiction. Another stat revealed that over 10000000 youth and adolescents regularly view pornography online. Those are just rough estimates at the end of the day, though,
7:28 Nick. We know that based on the trends we're seeing in the mental health field, that's where I work as a licensed professional counselor. Looking at these trends and these statistics, those things are escalating far
7:36 beyond those already significant stats that I just rattled off right there. But in knowing that, you being on the front lines, you working with couples, you working with individuals that are struggling with the sexual
7:47 brokenness and the sexual sin space, what are you seeing? Really, what are you hearing? And why do you think in this day and age, things have really escalated to levels that we've never quite seen before?
8:00 Well, I'll add to your research and stats, Zach, that we just released some brand new data with the Barna Group found that within the church among practicing Christians, 54 percent would say they're viewing
8:11 pornography at least occasionally. That equates to 75 percent of men, but also 40 percent of women in the church are saying, to some degree, this is an issue in my life. It's the first time I'm aware
8:23 of that a majority, so over half of practicing Christians would say this is a problem in their life. And I don't think it's because they don't know the truth, or we aren't preaching the gospel, or the Bible isn't
8:35 relevant and real. All of those things are true, but I think what we've missed is how deeply this behavior runs in our life. That the behavior way, is just
8:47 the tip of the iceberg that we can see above the waterline. But driving this behavior is all kinds of patterns in our life, ways that we have learned to cope with pain or woundedness from our past, and the lies
8:58 that have been created from those past wounds about our value, worth, and identity. And so pornography, much like many other behaviors or addictions in our world, have actually become the pseudo solution to those
9:10 deeper problems of how do I cope with pain and unwanted feelings and these lies that I believe about trying to be good enough? Well, pornography answers that in an artificial way for a moment.
9:22 And yet when it comes to dealing with pornography in most churches or recovery programs, it's just a behavior management system. Don't do it. It's wrong. Have accountability and turn away. And yet if
9:34 we're not able to address the deeper systems and patterns that have been driving this problem, for many people for decades, the likelihood of lasting change is going to be very, very slim. And so that's
9:46 why our approach, I think, is so revolutionary because it addresses the deeper stuff. It sees pornography as the symptom of those deeper problems. And yes, a sinful symptom and a painful behavior
9:58 and something we need to change, but we want to create lasting change by addressing those belief systems, by healing the wounds, by helping someone see the pattern that has led them into this behavior over and over.
10:10 And much of that starts the last thing I'll say about it, Zach is that in so many churches, we just don't know how to talk about this topic. And in many families, the only talk we have is that sex is for marriage, and so
10:22 save it for that. And then everything else is like, go figure it out on your own. And really step 1 in so many churches or homes would be simply to create that environment where it is safe to talk about this, and to
10:34 raise our hand and say, I need help in this area. And that if we raise our hand, that doesn't mean we're a weaker Christian or a lesser person. But there's a freedom there. There's a grace to say, even in this area,
10:46 God and God's people care about this topic, and I can be helped here. Because until we do that, people are gonna continue to stay in isolation and in silence and secrecy. And those are the very things
10:58 that drive this behavior. And so we have to address those patterns of isolation and secrecy. And thank God the church is the place to do that. We just need to learn some better, patterns and systems to make
11:10 it happen.
11:11 Amen, Nick. Know, again, working in this space, something that you just touched on is that addiction is always a secondary issue. Right? There's always something underlying those things. So getting to the root, getting
11:22 to the heart, getting to the soul. Right? That's the most important thing. And that's why I love what you guys are doing at Pure Desire Ministry. I'm gonna stop this right there and jump in to say, you're listening to
11:31 Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors. I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing right after this. You're listening to Life Audio.
11:43 Have you ever felt like you're behind in life? Like, you should be further along or that things don't turn out the way that you hoped? Tanner Olsen's new book, Getting Through What You're Going Through, is a reminder
11:55 that you're not behind. You're right where you're meant to be. This heartfelt collection of over 100 poems and reflections invites you to slow down, breathe, and find hope in
12:06 life's ordinary moments, a warm cup of coffee, a walk with a friend, even a simple pancake. Tanner reminds us that God is present in both the highs and the lows and that hope
12:18 is always within reach. Preorder your copy of Getting Through What You're Going Through Wherever Books Are Sold.
12:28 Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted
12:40 podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Born. Prefer to listen instead? The daily bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters aloud, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like
12:51 ESV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app
13:03 on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace.
13:08 I remember, Jim Crest. He does a lot of work with us here at AACC. We love him to death, But he's a sex a certified sex addiction therapist. On top of that, a licensed professional counselor. And I remember years ago, he
13:18 told me that he believes that pornography and sexual addiction or sexual sin are almost like the sin of choice or the offensive choice within the church at large. Why? Because he gave all of these different a's. The
13:29 first 1 is that it's affordable. Right? It's free of charge. It's accessible. It's everywhere. But also it allows you to remain anonymous. Like you said, that sense of hiddenness. We'll get to this sense of shame. But
13:40 something I know, Nick, just in reading your story and hearing you speak a couple of times is that this is very near and dear. It's personal to you. Why you do what you do today. So Nick, I kinda wanna pass you off the
13:51 mic and I wanna allow you the opportunity to share a little bit about your story and your testimony and how you've really been able to transition from bondage to breakthrough.
14:01 I appreciate that, Zach, because it is my story. And I think my story has elements that are common to so many, particularly for Christian men and women, the stories that we grew up in. I have wonderful godly parents. My
14:13 dad is a pastor for 50 years, a very consistent godly man. And yet in our home, we did not talk about sexual things or sexuality. And so when I was exposed to some sexual content at a friend's
14:24 house, I immediately felt 2 things. I felt the pull that there's something interesting here. I felt curious. I felt desire that I'd never felt before. But I also felt this push of this is wrong, I shouldn't be
14:36 seeing it. And my parents would be so angry if they knew this was happening. And so in a desire not to lose a friendship or be forbidden from going to his house, I didn't tell them. And that created this pattern in my
14:48 life that I have found is so common for Christian men and women, is this from the get go was a secretive and shameful behavior in my life. Secretive in that I couldn't tell people because they'd be angry, and shameful in
14:59 that I didn't understand why I was so drawn to something, so curious about something that I believed to be wrong. And that was the pattern that continued to follow me into my teenage years and into college where,
15:11 I'm 46 years old, so the Internet was kind of becoming a thing in my late teen and early adulthood years. And finding that pornography was available for free at the touch of a button,
15:23 became a temptation that was, irresistible for me at times. And I began a binge purge struggle with pornography, where I could go several months and do great, and okay,
15:35 I've figured this out, last time was the last time. And then something would occur, or I'd have access that I didn't expect, and I would find myself stumbling yet again. And then I'd go through the binge of, God, I'm so
15:47 sorry, never again. I never kept this secret life where I was trying to manage both. It was always the last time. And so when I met my wife to be, I had been encouraged to be honest before marriage,
15:59 and I shared my history with pornography, and she was very forgiving and understanding, but also asked me, Why don't you just promise me you never do these things again? And I remember saying to her,
16:11 I want to make you that promise, but I feel like I've made that promise to God, myself, and others in the past, and it keeps coming back. So I'm gonna try really hard in our marriage, but I don't know if I can make you
16:22 that promise. And what I find so fascinating as I look back is that as a 21 year old who was sincere in my faith, loved Jesus, and loved this woman I was pledging my life to with all my
16:34 heart, that I was acknowledging there was a behavior in my life I didn't know how to successfully manage. I was using the language of addiction without ever thinking of it as that. And so we entered into 10 years
16:45 of marriage where this was the pattern. Every 6 months or so, I would have to come back and say, I'm so sorry it's happened again, but it's not about you. It's not because of our marriage or our sexuality. It's this
16:56 thing in my life. I'm trying really hard, and this was the last time. Well, after 10 years of that, my wife was done. She'd heard it was the last time too many times, and it never was. She
17:08 said, Nick, it's not that I hate you, but it's that I hate the way this makes me feel. And because I don't know if it's ever gonna change, I don't know if I can stay around for that much pain. And God really used that in
17:20 my life. That became a wake up call because I had so minimized and rationalized the behavior so that I could live with myself that I had really thought, oh, she just doesn't understand. And if she understood, she
17:31 wouldn't be so hurt by it. But I think that was the moment I realized I was the 1 that didn't understand. That I didn't understand how much pain I was causing, and how I was allowing this to continue, because I really
17:42 didn't know what else to do. Well, was in that season where our marriage really was at a breaking point that we discovered Pure Desire Ministries. At a conference for pastors in my denomination, Doctor. Ted Roberts
17:54 spoke, and our leadership said, If you're a pastor who struggles, but it doesn't involve other people, so nothing physical, and it doesn't involve illegal content, we want to work with you to stay in ministry. We want to
18:06 get you the counseling and help that you need, and we want to pay for a good chunk of the process. And it was like they were rolling out the red carpet just for me and for my wife and the story that we were in. And you
18:16 would think I would have been running down the aisle saying, sign me up. I'd have been top at the list, but I wasn't. I was so stuck in that shame and isolation and minimizing it, that I thought,
18:28 boy, I hope the pastors in this room who are really struggling are listening, because this sounds like a great opportunity for them. I was ready to push it away, and I found that is so often the nature
18:40 of our struggle, that we think the people who really need help is someone who's a step beyond wherever we are. And then if we take that step, we just keep moving the line further and further down the field, because it's
18:51 difficult to deal with. But by God's grace, I wasn't at that conference alone. My wife was sitting next to me, and she's elbowing me saying, You're going to go talk to them, right? You're going to go talk to them, right?
19:03 And I said, Well, I guess I am now, because I did want to save my marriage. I wanted to heal the pain I was causing. And so really at my wife's encouragement, we went and met with pure desire. And I think for the
19:14 first time I sat with someone that wasn't just trying to help me manage my sin or stop a behavior, but said, Nick, we understand how this is a heart problem and a brain problem, and we're going to help walk
19:26 you through a process of healing through a very biblical foundation, but maybe understanding some things you've never seen before. And for the first time in my life, I was able to unpack my whole story, and to see how
19:38 things from childhood, not just sexual things, but things about relationships and expectations I felt that were put on me to always be the best and perform well, were actually all wrapped into my struggle with
19:49 pornography. And then we both got into groups, myself for the people who struggled, my wife for spouses who were betrayed, and we walked a healing journey that was nothing short of transformational, because
20:01 it changed everything, not only my behavior, but the way we did our relationship, the way I thought of myself and of the world. And it really created significant change in just so many areas. And it was from there
20:13 that we ended up sharing our healing story with our church. In a moment of real honesty, I stood up front and as I was preaching on Romans chapter 7, as we talked about Paul the Apostle
20:25 saying, why do I do what I don't want to do? I said, I think I can bring some unique perspective to this today because for 15 years I have struggled with an addiction to pornography. And you could have heard a pin drop
20:36 in our church that morning as we got to that level of I asked for their forgiveness, and then I asked for their help, my church, to help us start a ministry for men and women who struggled
20:48 with this same problem. And what happened in that moment is it really became like an opening of the floodgates. Because when the senior pastor can be real about his journey, it makes it okay
21:00 for everyone else. And we watched over the next 5 years, men and women continue to come forward, go through this group experience, and find significant levels of transformation and change. And
21:12 God used our story to just multiply healing in our church community. And that's what ultimately led to me becoming involved with Pure Desire as the executive director and getting to use my story both as an individual and
21:23 then as a pastor to say, healing is possible. God can do an incredible work in this area, but we have to be willing to face our story and we have to be willing to get really honest with 1 another. But it's just been
21:35 life giving to watch that our story continue to be multiplied over and over and get to use what we're so passionate about to help other people find that same freedom.
21:45 Nick, first and foremost, thank you so much just for your vulnerability and sharing your story. It is so impactful to see the way that God is now using what was once really a lot of pain in your life and now using it
21:57 truly for his greatest purpose in and throughout your life. And when I hear your story, you know, there's no question. There's probably a lot of listeners, viewers out there tonight in our audience that they hear this
22:07 and they recognize that there's there's been a lot of Christian leaders, Nick, who have fallen, who have stumbled, who have, you know, maybe hidden sin in their own life for time and time and time, and then eventually
22:18 gets exposed or it comes out. But that's really what stood out to me about your story specifically, that you and Michelle, you guys were able to talk. You guys were willing enough to confront your
22:29 congregation. And with humility, by taking responsibility and with great courage, bringing these things to the pulpit and sharing them with vulnerability. I mean, it's been a rough summer. We know that things at Oak
22:39 Fellowship, things at Gateway. Right? That's a lot of different things that have happened. But what was it about you, Nick, that really you felt pressing from the Lord to say, I need to share this with the people that I
22:51 have been shepherding throughout this journey?
22:54 Well, if I'm honest, Zach, I don't know if it was a lot about me, because as I shared, I was very resistant. I thought, hey, I've kind of got this managed. I was so stuck in my way of seeing the world that I didn't
23:04 realize how much help I needed. But God had done 2 things. 1, had given me a wife who has continued to stay faithful and said, I want to see change. She was able to say, I love you and this
23:16 can't keep happening. But God had also put us in a church community where there had been a level of grace that had already been extended to me. I had been the associate pastor there at the age of 22, and in that season
23:26 had opened up about my struggles with pornography, and had found an elder board that was forgiving, that wanted to stand with me, but also really didn't know a pathway to freedom. And so when it came to this healing
23:37 journey, I at least had an inkling that I might get support rather than be rejected and fired. And I think that's such a crucial element because honestly, most pastors are not given permission to
23:49 be human beings. We have an expectation that if you've been trained in Bible and theology and preaching and exhortation, like you're good to go, and everything else is probably matured along with it. But we don't
24:01 really ask the right questions to determine what's the level of growth and maturity in your personal life, and particularly in your sexuality. So then we get these titles like pastor or reverend or
24:13 leader, and what happens is we push down all that secret stuff that could disqualify us. We feel like it's not safe to bring up here, and yet it's not going to go away when we do that. In fact, it usually gets worse.
24:25 And so then what we see happening in all these stories is it's the outcome. It's the fruit of unaddressed secrecy and patterns of behavior and then shame coming out. And so I look at my story and just
24:37 I'm so grateful that God put me in a place where there was an opportunity to say first and foremost, I am a man who's in need of help. And put us in the right place to get that
24:49 help at the right time, because I easily could have become another 1 of those stories. To just think I'll keep it under control, it won't go too far, and then to get caught up in something that would have derailed a
24:59 career and a marriage and a ministry. And I think that's a message that I'm trying to say to churches and organizations and denominations, to ask the question, why do we keep waiting for the next story to hit the
25:11 headlines? Why don't we come alongside all of our leaders and pastors, particularly when they're young or starting out to just say, hey, we know you got a great education, we love your MDiv, we think the school you went
25:22 to probably awesome. But we also know you're a human being that God made in his image as a sexual being. And we're guessing probably nobody helped you in this area. And we're going to create a pathway for you to become a
25:33 mature man of God, a mature woman of God in your sexuality, so that you're prepared and equipped to do ministry for a lifetime. And what I have found, Zach, quite frankly, is that nobody is doing that. No
25:45 seminary is doing that. Denominations aren't doing that. And it's not for a lack of heart or compassion. Right. We just haven't prioritized this to that point of saying, we want you to be healthy in this area more than
25:57 we want you to be some successful famous pastor or minister. And so I think the reality is we're going to keep seeing these results. We're going to keep seeing leaders that go sideways after decades of effective
26:08 ministry. Why? Because it's been under the surface the whole time. It just hasn't erupted in a way that leads to the disqualification until really it's too late. And so I look at my story and say, man, what if we
26:20 had environments where Christian leaders, pastors, missionaries, full time ministers knew my organization is not just making it optional, like they're requiring
26:32 me to lean into my healing in my sexuality because they care, and because this is a safe place to be real. And until we do that, we're going keep getting the results that we've got. And so I hope the data
26:44 that's coming out with the Barna Group that we've released, the stories that we hear, that we don't just stick our heads in sand and say, oh, that's just that person. They had problems, and so let's move on from them.
26:56 No, we say this is a systemic problem. This is something about the way that we qualify our leaders, that we have to be willing to go deeper and let them be real, and then provide a pathway for their healing.
27:08 Come on, Nick. I appreciate just what you said so much because I think it's imperative, like you said, that there are ministries like Pure Desire and what you guys are doing in walking alongside of leaders and Christian
27:19 leaders especially and pastors in their private lives, not just helping them in a sense enhance their public personas. You guys are creating these safe environments and atmospheres where grace and forgiveness and mercy
27:31 and accountability and acceptance and all of these things are offered. And I think it is so important and so necessary again for such a time as this. Nick, as we keep on, just progressing in this conversation,
27:43 I think 1 thing that Satan uses, especially in this battle with sexual sin or sexual addiction or pornography to really just silence us, to keep us stigmatized, to keep
27:55 us stuck in life is he uses shame. Right? That little whisper that says, if you only knew me, Nick. Right? If you only knew what I did behind closed doors, you wouldn't love me. You wouldn't accept me. You wouldn't
28:04 interact with me. I wouldn't have the opportunity of speaking or of sharing. All of these different things. Shame is ultimately though a liar. And shame makes us believe it's not only the guilt that we have
28:16 a problem, it makes us believe that we are the problem. Nick, speak to this cycle of shame that is often attached to not just sexual addiction, but to addiction in general, even the mental health challenges in general at
28:28 large, And speak to how difficult of a process it is to journey out of, but maybe how some steps you took to get there.
28:36 For sure. Shame is a uniquely challenging problem. Let's make sure we're clear on what we mean when we say shame because many people use guilt and shame kind of synonymously. You hit on this, that shame is a
28:48 deeper level of understanding that says not that I did something wrong, shame says there's something wrong with me. At a fundamental level, there is something about me that is shameful, that is
28:59 wrong, that is, unworthy. And I think so many Christians sit in churches every Sunday and hear how Christ forgives their sin, which is about behavior. But they leave wondering, but how
29:11 does he feel about me? Because who I am, there's something wrong there. And we really need to help address people's shame. Because shame is a unique double edged sword when it comes to addictive behaviors. Shame is often
29:23 the thing that leads us into the behavior. So we feel like there's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. Do I have what it takes? Well, in an artificial way, pornography answers that question and says, No, you're
29:33 good enough. You're wanted. You're desirable. And so the pain we're feeling because of shame gets answered in an artificial way through pornography. But then after we viewed it, the shame message at the other side of the
29:45 sword happens, where it's like, why would I do that? How come I like that? What's wrong with me? And it reinforces the shame message. And so we get stuck in this shame cycle that traps us in feeling bad about
29:57 ourselves, and the behavior reinforces why we should feel bad about ourselves. And that's why isolation and secrecy cannot coexist with recovery and
30:08 health. Because when we're trying to recover alone, no matter how much good work we're doing, no matter what books we read, or podcasts we listen to, or radio shows, if we're doing it alone, we're going to, to some
30:19 degree, stay stuck in that shame cycle. Because what heals our shame is actually Christ centered community. It's other people who can be God with flesh on, who can look at us and in the spirit of
30:31 Christ say, You are loved, you are valued, you are wanted, you are forgiven. And to be able to say that to us in the midst of some of our biggest messes
30:43 and failures. I think that's what was so healing in my journey. Doctor. Ted Roberts had to require me to go to group. I argued with him. I tried to say I'm too busy for group. Can't I just come to counseling? You
30:55 and I just fix this and I'll be fine. I've got elders meetings and I was a cross country coach and we had little kids and I'm like, I don't have another night of the week. And he said, Nick, if you don't do group, you
31:05 probably won't change. And I think he understood fundamentally the power of community. And so I went to this group, and Doctor. Ted had told me, You don't even have to tell them you're a pastor.
31:17 You can just show up and go through the materials. So I was determined at this group to do the bare minimum, to not share anything I didn't want to. But I went into this group where men, for the first time in my
31:29 life, were opening the story of their lives, and they were telling everything. Not just, yeah, I struggled with pornography once in a while. Like, they were telling the whole story, and getting into the nitty gritty, and
31:39 there was grace, and there was acceptance, and because of that, I felt safe to do that in my own story. And when you've never told somebody some of the details of your journey, and I really believe there's some truth of
31:51 the idea that the devil is in the details. Meaning the devil's voice of shame and condemnation is in those details of our story that we think, well, if anyone ever heard that part. Like, yeah, there's this general
32:02 pornography struggle, but if they heard the kind of pornography, or the lines that I've crossed, or the fetish that I have, well, they would reject me. And when you hear yourself saying that out loud for the first time,
32:14 the shame comes with it. And you're like, oh my word, here it comes, I'm going to be rejected. And when instead people look you in the eye and say, wow, thank you for sharing. That was powerful. We're so glad that you're
32:24 here. We love having you in our group. Something starts to happen inside of you. This is what happened to me, that all of those voices of shame began to be quieted down. And really, I think for the first time, God's
32:36 love, God's true love for me as his son went from something I knew in my head to something I was actually experiencing in my heart. Not because I read a great book or heard a great sermon, but because through other
32:48 people that knew my whole story, I was experiencing the love of God. And that is what is so key in this journey, is we can know all of the right stuff, but until we experience a different
32:59 relationship where we are loved and known, you know, the true definition of intimacy, that we are loved and known for who we truly and really are, that's what changes us. And that's what so many Christians are lacking
33:11 is they know all of the right stuff. They know what to do, but they haven't experienced the radical love of Christ in some of those places of their deepest shame. And that's what a group context, that's what
33:23 community can accomplish for us and why it is such a crucial part of the healing journey. End of Healing Shame. We started with shame, got into group, it's all connected.
33:32 No, it's all connected. And I think that's exactly, where I wanted you to go with this because I believe that there is power in community as well and I believe that healing cannot be found in hiding. And I think that is
33:44 accurate with the statistics. That's accurate with the literature and the research. I'm doing a lot of literature right now around the power of attachment. And so being able to recognize, like you said, those that might
33:53 have an insecure internal working model, an insecure or a negative unhealthy view of self or a healthy view of others and the world around them, if they're surrounded by 1, 2,
34:05 3 kind of secure relationships that make them feel seen, that make them feel sued, that make them feel safe and secure, they can actually earn secure attachment again. And that's this whole idea of
34:17 interpersonal neurobiology and neuroplasticity that our brains can be rewired and adapted over time. That is the intricacy of God. That he is such a relational being that he wants us to experience that security and that
34:29 safety in him and in those that we love. But Nick, up to this point, you know, we've talked a lot about those that are struggling with and fighting the addiction of sexual sin personally. But I
34:41 think someone who often gets overlooked in this process are the partners and the loved ones of those who struggle with sexual addiction. Oftentimes, they experience what many have identified as betrayal trauma, where
34:52 everything that should have been sacred in their sex life was abused or overlooked or maybe taken for granted. And Nick, there may be somebody out there today who's listening and who's struggling with just a lot of
35:03 anger, maybe a lot of bitterness, maybe a lack of trust. They have their own deep wounds because of their partner's choices and decisions. What's just a word of encouragement and hope to that person today? But
35:15 also, what do you guys have to offer through pure desire for betrayal trauma and individuals that are really struggling?
35:22 The place I would want to start with that individual, Zach, is to say what you are feeling, the anger, the hurt, the desperation is completely normal. That that is how we should feel
35:34 when the safest person in our world turns out to not be safe, or has been lying or deceiving us, you are experiencing a trauma response. And it is how God designed our brain to respond to
35:46 situations that are not safe. And unfortunately, for far too long, we've kind of ignored the other half of the story, if you will. We think about the struggle, and often if we're being honest, we think about the man
35:56 being the struggle, and like, let's just fix that man up, get him to stop doing the bad thing, and then everything will be okay. And sometimes we've even gone further in a much more harmful way to look at that spouse
36:08 and say, well, what are you not doing? Are you not having enough sex at home? Are you not providing what's needed? Making an assumption that the reason a person looks at pornography or acts out sexually is because
36:19 they're not having enough sex. And yet we know that's not the problem at all. And having more sex at home can't fix it or make the problem better. And so rather than helping the betrayed spouse, we've often shamed them
36:31 and made the problem about them, which is absolutely unhelpful and not true. There's research out there that shows that when a spouse has been in a situation where they continue to get staggered disclosure
36:43 of a loved one's sexual activity, of their spouse acting out with pornography or other forms of compulsive sexual behavior, that the impact they have, that it has on them, is at the same level of someone who
36:55 has experienced rape. And we might think of those as 2 totally different situations, and they are in a physical regard, but in terms of the impact on the body and the soul and the mind, the trauma that'sShow more
Comments No comments yet. Start the conversation.
Zach Clinton
Comments
Keep it kind. Comments are public.