Skip to content The Jesus Approach to Trauma Recovery with David Tharp & Scott Meador Dec 4 · 59 min ...more
The Jesus Approach to Trauma Recovery with David Tharp & Scott Meador
December 4, 2025 · 59 min
In this special episode recorded at the 2025 Hope Together Conference, Haley and Dustin are joined by Air Force Lt. Col. David Tharp and Army veteran Scott Meador. Together, they share how God met them in the darkest moments—through suicidal despair, physical pain, and the lasting impact of war. Their personal stories of hope led them to create UpArmor, a Christ-centered trauma recovery training designed to help veterans, coaches, and caregivers bring biblical healing to wounded hearts.
Together, we talk about the reality of trauma, the obstacles to recovery, and how Jesus is at the center of lasting healing. Whether you’ve faced trauma yourself or want to help others, this episode will remind you that hope and restoration are possible through Christ.
Subscribe to the podcast and tune in each week as Haley and Dustin share with you what the Bible says about real-life issues with compassion, warmth, and wit.
So you have every reason for hope, for every challenge in life. Because hope means everything.
Hope Talks is a podcast of the ministry of Hope for the Heart.
Resources from David & Scott
Learn more about Project Healing Heroes – https://www.projecthealingheroes.org/
Learn more about UpArmor trauma coaching – https://iccicoaching.com/product/up-armor-training-coaching-foundations-and-basic-training/
Hope for the Heart resources
Order our newest resource, The Care and Counsel Handbook, providing biblical guidance 100 real-life issues: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/care-and-counsel-handbook
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hopefortheheart
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hopefortheheart
Want to talk with June Hunt on Hope in the Night about a difficult life issue? Schedule a time here: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/talk-with-june-hope-in-the-night
God’s plan for you: https://www.hopefortheheart.org/gods-plan-for-you/
Give to the ministry of Hope for the Heart: https://raisedonors.com/hopefortheheart/givehope?sc=HTPDON
Series Hope Talks December 4, 2025 · 59 min · Hope Talks
In this special episode recorded at the 2025 Hope Together Conference, Haley and Dustin are joined by Air Force Lt. Col. David Tharp and Army veteran Scott Meador. Together, they share how God met them in the darkest moments—through suicidal despair, physical pain, and the lasting impact of war. Their personal stories of hope led them to create UpArmor, a Christ-centered trauma recovery training designed to help veterans, coaches, and caregivers bring biblical healing to wounded hearts. Together, we talk about the reality of trauma, the obstacles to recovery, and how Jesus is at the center of lasting healing. Whether you’ve faced trauma yourself or want to help others, this episode will remind you that hope and restoration are possible through Christ. Subscribe to the podcast and tune in each week as Haley and Dustin share with you what the Bible says about real-life issues with compassion, warmth, and wit. So you have every reason for hope, for every challenge in life. Because hope means everything. Hope Talks is a podcast of the ministry of Hope for the Heart. Resources from David & Scott Learn more about Project Healing Heroes – https://www.projecthealingheroes.org/ Learn more about UpArmor trauma coaching – https://iccicoaching.com/product/up-armor-training-coaching-foundations-and-basic-training/ Hope for the Heart resources Order our newest resource, The Care and Counsel Handbook, providing biblical guidance 100 real-life issues: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/care-and-counsel-handbook Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hopefortheheart Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hopefortheheart Want to talk with June Hunt on Hope in the Night about a difficult life issue? Schedule a time here: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/talk-with-june-hope-in-the-night God’s plan for you: https://www.hopefortheheart.org/gods-plan-for-you/ Give to the ministry of Hope for the Heart: https://raisedonors.com/hopefortheheart/givehope?sc=HTPDON ...more Show the full description Show less In this special episode recorded at the 2025 Hope Together Conference, Haley and Dustin are joined by Air Force Lt. Col. David Tharp and Army veteran Scott Meador. Together, they share how God met them in the darkest moments—through suicidal despair, physical pain, and the lasting impact of war. Their personal stories of hope led them to create UpArmor, a Christ-centered trauma recovery training designed to help veterans, coaches, and caregivers bring biblical healing to wounded hearts.
Together, we talk about the reality of trauma, the obstacles to recovery, and how Jesus is at the center of lasting healing. Whether you’ve faced trauma yourself or want to help others, this episode will remind you that hope and restoration are possible through Christ.
Subscribe to the podcast and tune in each week as Haley and Dustin share with you what the Bible says about real-life issues with compassion, warmth, and wit.
So you have every reason for hope, for every challenge in life. Because hope means everything.
Hope Talks is a podcast of the ministry of Hope for the Heart.
Resources from David & Scott
Learn more about Project Healing Heroes – https://www.projecthealingheroes.org/
Learn more about UpArmor trauma coaching – https://iccicoaching.com/product/up-armor-training-coaching-foundations-and-basic-training/
Hope for the Heart resources
Order our newest resource, The Care and Counsel Handbook, providing biblical guidance 100 real-life issues: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/care-and-counsel-handbook
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hopefortheheart
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hopefortheheart
Want to talk with June Hunt on Hope in the Night about a difficult life issue? Schedule a time here: https://resource.hopefortheheart.org/talk-with-june-hope-in-the-night
God’s plan for you: https://www.hopefortheheart.org/gods-plan-for-you/
Give to the ministry of Hope for the Heart: https://raisedonors.com/hopefortheheart/givehope?sc=HTPDON
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Hope for the Heart is a worldwide biblical counseling, coaching, and caregiving ministry founded by June Hunt in 1986. We’re passionate about helping people
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In this video 0:00 Introductions and Scott's Journey from Despair to Hope7:03 David's Battle with Trauma and Physical Affliction20:50 Forged in Fire: Creating Up Armor Through Trials42:40 The Jesus Approach: Trauma Recovery and Hope for All
1:11 It's actually doctor David Tharp. Doc. I like that part. Yep.
1:15 Yep. And then Scott Meader serves as the COO and board member for Project Healing Heroes. And, also, we were just talking about you were an EOD tech, as well in the army. And so you guys have been with
1:27 us. You've developed these training courses called Up Armor that kinda walks through trauma and recovery coaching, with us in our coaching arm of the ministry at ICCI. And so we're
1:38 gonna get into that and a little bit today, but just so grateful for you guys and the training that you provide, especially for veterans and first responders. So thank you for being here today, and we're looking
1:50 forward to hearing your hope story.
1:52 Yeah. And thanks for confessing that you were gonna play a trick on us and how we didn't have time to do that because I think that was wise. But, no, we're so excited. I mean, you guys have been doing Up Armor and your
2:03 books and just helping veterans for so long and getting to just hopefully kinda come alongside you in that. But on Hope Talks, we do like to hear some hope stories. We like to talk about practical, tangible
2:15 stories of hope and what that has looked like for people. So we would love and I said I'll just pitch it to kind of both of you. I don't know if you guys 1, 2, 3, not it, but who would like okay. Scott, you're closest to
2:26 me. What's a hope story? A time that you kinda learned to put your hope in Christ and what that meant.
2:31 Mine is really easy.
2:33 It was
2:33 13 years ago. At the time, I had 2 best selling books on Amazon. I had made partner at my company at the youngest age ever. I was married. I had 2 beautiful little girls at home.
2:45 Everything sounds great. Right? Mhmm. That's when I decided I wanted to kill myself. Oh, god. And thought that I was worthless and that my family would be better off with the life
2:56 insurance money than they were with me. And I knew if I ate a bullet, they wouldn't get the check. So my wife sent me to the grocery store 1 night, and in my hometown, there's a major 4 lane highway right in front of the
3:07 grocery store. And I pulled out of the grocery store, stopped at the stop sign, and waited on the next 18 wheeler so I could pull out in front of it. And for 45 minutes, I sat there. Not only did not a
3:19 single 18 wheeler come by, not a single car come down highway 69 for 45 minutes. And you're so messed up in the head when you're at that point. The the reason I
3:31 went home and I give up was I was like, well, my wife sent me to the grocery store. She's gonna be worried about what's taking so long. It it makes no sense.
3:40 Yeah.
3:41 And then, that was on a Friday night. Sunday, I walk into the church and a guy hits me just soon as I come in the door. They have this men's boot camp, a very intense
3:53 weekend that they have for guys. I had paid for it 2 years earlier, thinking that if I gave them their money, they would leave me alone and I could get out of having a go. And he hit me as soon as I walked in the door
4:04 and he's like, there's boot camp next weekend, you're going. Don't wanna hear excuses, don't wanna hear about work, don't wanna hear about nothing, you're going. And went that weekend and learned that there were
4:16 some things from my past. I'm sure this stuff will come up as we talk. That I had not dealt with and learned to bring my value from what God saw in me and not what others
4:27 saw in me. And then about 2 weeks later, a friend of mine come up and said, hey, there's this guy coming to speak at this Lone Star Church. He deals with PTSD and stuff. I think
4:39 you need to go with me. And this knucklehead was talking and he said 1 thing while he was speaking, I still had the PTSD part. I was working on everything,
4:52 Knew to find my value in Christ and in who I was through him, but I still had that stuff, this feeling that I was broken, that there was something wrong with me. And David talked about 1 thing during his talk and the
5:03 light bulb come on. And I realized, I'm not broken. I'm normal. It's normal to be here. And ever since then, have done everything that I could do, not only
5:15 volunteering and leading boot camps and helping other guys. And in fact, very disappointed because we're having a boot camp this weekend.
5:22 Oh, no.
5:22 I could hurt
5:23 because I was here.
5:24 But not only doing that, but then it ain't a lot that I can do. You read through his bio
5:30 Mhmm.
5:30 And you could've ended mine with not
5:32 a doctor. I'm not
5:34 a psychiatrist. I'm not that guy, but like to do what I can to try to help the ministry in any way that I can. So then I got involved, and it has grown from there.
5:45 When Scott says that, let me just tell you, we had to have a promise made between us. And he said, I will help you in this ministry, but under no circumstances will you put me in front of people or in front of a
5:56 microphone for speak at any conference. And I said, okay. We got a deal. I promise. And did I keep my promise?
6:03 David kept his promise, but I've always heard, if you wanna hear God laugh, tell him your plans.
6:08 Oh, lord. Yeah.
6:09 He was belly rolling the day that I said that, I guarantee. Because we had no idea what was coming.
6:14 Yeah.
6:14 But I can honestly say, wouldn't change a thing.
6:19 Yeah.
6:20 Come on.
6:20 I made it through without getting allergies.
6:22 I know. I know.
6:23 Tears didn't well up or nothing.
6:25 We throw the word hope around a lot. We talk about hope. We talk about hope together and bringing hope together. But the thought of you sitting there waiting for a truck to come by and thinking about where you were in
6:37 that moment, that is just incredibly painful. And thinking of that's where hope is the the most real. That the God of the universe shut down traffic.
6:48 Yeah. The highway was closed. He He could not explain.
6:51 He shut it down. And then the the positions that he put you in to get you to where you are, I mean, if that's not knowing how to put our hope in Christ, God moves. He
David's Battle with Trauma and Physical Affliction
7:03 moves, and I'm really glad that you're here. And now I'm a little bit mad that I was the first 1 to cry. So we're also in a fight now. Scott, why don't you start talking?
7:13 Or David, I'm sorry. I'm just
7:16 stuck on it. We gotta go
7:16 and get it. Oh, yeah. I'm in. Yeah. I walked right into it.
7:20 Walked right into it.
7:21 Oh, okay.
7:21 Thank you for sharing
7:22 that, Scott. Oh, yes. Yeah. You know, in the military, we talk about somebody having your 6. Right? Mhmm. It doesn't work, by the way, when you work with, with kids that are used to digital clocks because they're like,
7:31 what?
7:31 Yes. And I was telling my kids, I'm
7:34 like, when somebody's got your 6, and they're like, looking at me like I've totally lost my mind, and I'm like, oh you don't have a clue what I'm talking about and I'm telling you Scott has been there in every
7:45 capacity for the past how many years have we been doing this it's almost been like 9 9? At this point. Yeah. It's a yeah. So since 2016, we started the organization, and it wasn't long after that that I did the talk in
7:57 Tyler. And we've got a story for you on that 1 too about how the Lord really brought up armor together and everything else. But I think you said you wanted to hear my hope stories.
8:04 Yeah. Would love that.
8:06 Man, I'm gonna try to do my best to get through this without tears. When I was in Kandahar, Afghanistan, so it was my job to identify anybody that got killed in the earth. I write in the books 100 people that I probably
8:17 saw die, but it was closer to 300. I never want somebody to challenge my integrity to say, you know, I'm overstating something.
8:23 Yeah.
8:24 And it was bad. I mean, it was tough. I'm not gonna kid you. And so I went to seminary as well, Northern Baptist Seminary, and I worked in hospice. I worked on trauma level 1 centers. I graduated number 1 in my doctoral
8:35 program out of 77. I was top 2 percent at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center with Secret Service and the FBI and all these other agencies. Mhmm. And all of that, I only say that because I felt like I was in a
8:47 really good position. I'm like, if anybody can do this, I'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't. I'm gonna tell you. There's actually 2 things that we found out in that whole process. So in
8:59 Kandahar, when there's a rocket that comes in, there is an alarm system that we would have that you would hear this 19 fifties British sound that would go off half the time that the rocket would come in, which means the
9:10 other half, it didn't work.
9:12 Right.
9:12 And so but the whole idea was to hit the ground when you hear the sound because you pair psychologically sound, ground, sound, ground, sound, ground. Mhmm. So you've got conditioning that's happening. After I came out of
9:23 Afghanistan, I was at a Texas roadhouse, and somebody had that sound on their phone. And so I go to grab my kids and my wife and I don't don't judge me. I don't know why I didn't, but I just
9:35 dove on the ground and covered up because that's what you did in a war zone. Wow. My brain did not recognize the fact that I'm no longer there. I was responding just
9:46 like a paired, like, thing on your watch, like an Apple Watch or something up. I had been paired up through conditioning that that's exactly what you did. Mhmm. And I realized, I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm that guy now.
9:58 Like, how did this happen? Yeah. So I flip over and, of course, you gotta make light of it because what do you do? Right. So my wife is like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm checking out the peanuts. I wanna make
10:08 sure they're okay. And she's like, what? And so I sit up in the chair and she's like, do you wanna talk about it? And I said, not on your life.
10:15 No.
10:15 And she's like, why? I said, because if I do, I'm gonna start crying and I'm not gonna be able to stop.
10:20 Right.
10:20 It's just those kinds of things that hit you. So my hope story was in Kandahar. Let's just say that there's a lot of stress that happens. So we would work 16 hour days. That was not unusual. It's
10:32 intense. I remember 1 time that that there was a rocket that came in and I said I was talking to my wife and I said, I've gotta go. But I didn't call her back for 3 days. Well, you can imagine how that went Oh. Because
10:43 she was just, like, thinking the worst. While I was in Kandahar, I had a situation where I started I couldn't feel my legs. All of a sudden, things are not going well. And then it started moving up higher and higher and
10:54 higher. So because I was good friends with the neurologist and stuff, I said, hey. I've got a troop. You know, that whole, hey. I got a friend?
11:01 Asking for
11:02 a friend.
11:02 And I said, yeah. Asking for a friend. I said, hey. What do you think is going on with somebody who has no feeling, and it's moving upward? And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah. It's kinda like, you know, it started
11:14 my or no. It started in their feet.
11:16 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
11:18 And I said, and it's got a right they're telling me it goes right about here to their chest. And he's like, David, they've had a spinal cord injury. I'm like, how's that even possible when there's nothing happened? He
11:28 goes, I have no idea. But do you wanna talk about it? And I'm like, yeah, I think I probably ought to. And he goes, what's going on? I said, I don't know. I said, I can't feel anything. So I took my fist and I punched
11:39 myself in the chest. I go, I can't feel that at all. And he's like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah. So we started treatment for me at that point to reduce the swelling that we had found in my spinal cord. Long story
11:50 short, I come back through the medical system that I was actually commanding and I finally get to the SAMHSA or BAMHSA, what they call BAMHSA now in San Antonio Military Medical Center. The neurologist sees me and they
12:01 had done an MRI, but they couldn't find anything. So when you have a person who has symptoms, reported symptoms, but nothing is showing up on any of their tests,
12:13 They just come out of a war zone. I get the conclusion that he drew, and his answer was, I think this is in your head, I. E. It's a conversion disorder. Well, I know what that means because I'm a psychologist. I'm
12:25 tracking. I'm like, this is no conversion disorder. And he's like, no, I think it is. And I'm like, well, I think you're wrong. So we're having this dialogue. And so long story short, he actually has 2 of his residents
12:37 come in and see me. And I'm like, yeah. You never go against an attending. So the first doctor comes in and does a few tests and says, yeah. I agree with the attending. And I'm like, yeah. Of course, you do.
12:46 Mhmm. The
12:47 second 1 comes in and says, do you mind if I do some tests? I'm like, fine. Do you guys know what a patellar tendon reflex is? That's when you hit your knee right right below the knee and you can see
12:55 Funny bone or whatever. Yeah.
12:56 Yeah. On your knee. Yeah. Funny bone on your knee.
12:58 There you go.
12:59 And so he hits me there and there's no reflex. Nothing.
13:03 Wow.
13:04 And he said, you have no patellar tendon reflexes. And I said, I know. He goes, well, you know? And I said, yeah. I said, I'm not good. He's like, what? I said, I'm so good I can fake a non reflex. And he's like,
13:16 what? I said, yeah. I can control my body so well, I can make it stop reflexing. And he's like, no, you can't. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I can. He goes, no, you can't. And I said,
13:28 I know. And I said, and so do you. Ask me if I'm in pain. And he said, why? I said, because I don't want you to lose your career over me. So I end up leaving there. We go to Waco, Texas where I'm from. It's 4 AM.
13:40 And I I wake my wife up and I say, we have to go to the hospital now. And she goes, why? I said, I am in so much pain. I can't stand it. And so we're driving it. I said, is the truck locked? And she goes, yeah. Why? I
13:49 said, I'm gonna jump out. And she's like, do not jump out of this truck. I said, I can't take the pain anymore. So we get to the hospital and do you know what Demerol is? Yeah. Very strong powerful med. So
14:01 they give me Demerol, no effect, nothing. They give me more Demerol, no effect. And so finally, after all of this, they my church family, she texts them and says, Please pray for David. So my doctor is on
14:13 there, and he says, what's going on with David? And he's like, I don't know. I think he's a drug user because he's so not reacting to the medicine. He goes, he is not a drug user. I can assure you.
14:23 Yeah.
14:24 And so he's like, treat him. And so I what ended up happening was I asked for a muscle relaxer and all of a sudden it completely changed everything. But I was literally begging God to let me die. I wanted him to take my
14:35 life because it was so painful. And at that moment, 1 of the doctors came and said, I need to talk to you. And I said, Okay, what's going on? He said, On behalf of all neurology, I need to apologize. And I said, Why? And
14:47 he said, You have a spinal cord lesion in your spine at that's 3 centimeters long at c 2 c 3. By the way, how's your breathing? I said, I'm having difficulty. He goes, you're very lucky that you can breathe at all.
14:59 Wow.
15:00 And when you go through those kinds of experiences so 1 of the things that we teach people in our Let
15:05 me ask you a quick question. Yeah. So when did you realize you were in pain? Was the knee thing like a trigger for feeling the pain or had you been feeling that pain all along?
15:16 The reality is I couldn't feel anything.
15:17 You couldn't feel anything.
15:18 I had no ability what had happened was that the swelling from the spinal cord lesion had gotten so bad that it blocked the ability for me to feel any pain at all until I had muscle
15:30 spasticity. And then it went crazy. So
15:33 the muscle relaxer stopped
15:35 muscle spasticity. Okay. And so and and the funny part was is that after that happened, my pain went from like a 10 out of 10 to like a 2 in 30 seconds. And so the doctor's like,
15:47 what in the world just happened? And I said, no disrespect doc, but you're the doctor, not me. What do you think happened? And he goes, I've never seen anything like this. And that's when they found the spinal cord
15:55 lesion in my spine. But of course then my response is, is there anything you can do about it? Yeah. And they're like, no. And I'm like, so am I gonna be like this for the rest of my life? He's like, I hope not.
16:06 Oh my word.
16:07 So when you have things like that happen, it really brings you to your knees. And so I'll just share the last part of it. There was a period of time right after that when I went home and I told my wife, Catherine, I
16:18 said, whatever happens, you cannot let me fall asleep. And she's like, why? And I said, because if I do, I'm not gonna wake up. It was tough.
16:28 Yeah.
16:28 It was so hard because you get to a point where you feel such incredible pain that we tell people it's not that you want to die, it's that you want the pain to stop. Yeah. And that's the issue
16:40 is so many people that we deal with are in so much pain that they would just they're just to the point that they they just want the pain to stop. Right. And I was so, to the point in my life where I was just
16:52 I'm like, please do not let me fall asleep. Please do not let me fall asleep. I was totally convinced that if I fall asleep that night, I was never gonna wake up again.
16:59 Oh my goodness. How did they treat that?
17:02 So long story short, I have MS.
17:05 Okay.
17:06 So we found out over time and things that I had more of these lesions happen. And so I I have must I wouldn't like. Multiple sclerosis. Multiple sclerosis. Yeah. So I take medicine for it and things of that nature.
17:18 And thank the Lord I'm doing really well with all the medicine and everything else, but, it's been a long haul. I'm not gonna
17:24 catch you. So it was part of the stress in your body that had tightened you up, that you weren't feeling the symptoms of a major lesion on your spinal cord. Mhmm. So you're
17:35 actually dealing with 2 life threatening issues, the stress that you were feeling and the physical diagnosis. Yeah. I mean, how did you begin to process the stress after finding
17:47 that?
17:48 Well, again, all of my background, all of my training, everything, you know, and I'm going through all this stuff. And what was hard was when we were going through this and they couldn't find the answer, my wife is like,
17:57 David, she was going to medical school. And she's like, there's nothing there. Are you sure you're not making this up? And I'm like, I can assure you I'm not. I don't know how I'm gonna prove it to you, but I'm telling
18:09 you there's something wrong. And that's when it's the hardest is when the people that are the closest to you, when you're trying to explain like, I don't know how to prove it, but I'm telling you there's something wrong.
18:19 And then when the neurologist, you know, intervened and stuff and told us what was going on, that's when it changed.
18:25 Yeah. Okay. So people are now understanding. You're realizing you have a physical issue, a physical diagnosis. How did that change the trajectory of where you were? Obviously, you came off of the
18:37 field. Where did that lead you to?
18:40 So my wife and I needed to get away. Mhmm. So we went to Hawaii to take a break. The kids, for 4 months, I couldn't eat by myself. I had to have physical therapist help me to use those little things that are
18:51 spongy on forks because I'd hit my mouth and miss. And so my mother-in-law moved in with us because I couldn't take care of the kids. As a matter of fact, 1 of the hardest things psychologically was I was so looking
19:01 forward to coming home and playing with my son with football. And I grabbed the football, and I had no muscle strength or anything, and it fell right out of my hand on the ground. And he at 5, he runs up, grabs the ball,
19:10 puts it in my hands, and says, daddy, it's okay. 1 day, we'll play again.
19:14 Oh, gosh.
19:15 David. Yeah. We're trying hard
19:18 to make you cry. I know.
19:21 It's terrible. I mean, it's Yeah. I mean, it's just hard. And so we needed to get away. Now when I say this, everybody believes that their their spouse is beautiful and smart. Yeah. Mine really is. She graduated
19:33 in the top 3 of psychiatrists in the country.
19:36 Oh. Like,
19:37 off the charts. Really smart.
19:39 Mhmm.
19:39 And so when we were in Hawaii, this is how PHH come about. And so what happened was she said, David, I think I finally have an answer to help you. Good. Because I had gotten an answer from anybody. The VA wasn't
19:51 working out. Nothing was going well. And I said, great. I finally have an answer that I can use. I said, what is it? And she said, David, the answer lies within you. And I was like, are you kidding me? I had lost
20:03 it. And what did guys do? They get mad. So I stormed off and walked off. And I'm like, Lord, this woman you gave me.
20:12 That's right.
20:13 And so after I calmed down, I came back and I'm like, why would you say that to me? And she's like, because of all the things that God has given you. Think about everything that he has given you. If anybody can figure it
20:25 out, you can. So my question is, what would you do to help somebody in your position? And I said, let me tell you what I wouldn't do. And she said, that wasn't my question. I wanna know what you would do. Yeah. And so
20:35 she's like, write it down. So I started writing it down and she goes, good. Keep writing. And that's how the first book for PHH came about.
20:42 Wow. So she really is. Okay.
20:46 Yeah. So we can blame her. Yeah. And your wife. When
20:50 we get to the Up Armor program, we can blame my wife.Show more
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