Called or Chasing Clout? Pastors on Calling and Character

Key takeaways

• Calling often starts as a burden. Pastor Heron had no clear sign, only a conviction to help people, and he says God filled in the rest slowly.
• You only need the next step. The speakers agree you do not need the full picture, only to walk one step ahead of the people you gather.
• Stay planted in a church. Pastor Allen credits spiritual mothers and fathers with saving his life, and says faithfulness in the house of God is needed.
• Small things count. Pastor Heron's Jesus Club began with three students and grew because he stayed consistent.
• Ask the generation above you. Older adults in Allen's church felt unneeded, and young adults were afraid to ask them.
• Character keeps you in the room. Gifting and influence open doors, but integrity and humility are what hold you there.

How do you know you are called?

Guest host Sammy Rodriguez opened with a question many people carry: how do you tell a calling from a hunger for influence? He joked that people want the voice of the Lord and doves spelling out their name, when the reality is usually stepping out in faith.

Pastor Heron went first. He was saved at a youth conference in San Diego where Louie Giglio spoke and Jeremy Camp led worship, and he began throwing out his old CDs. With his cousin he started a Bible study at Cal State San Bernardino with 50 students. He had no experience, so he listened to Erwin Lutzer, R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur on the radio and preached their sermons to the group.

From there he went to The Master's College. He also started a Skid Row ministry with 20 students, who gathered on Friday nights to buy Del Taco and hand out water bottles to homeless people. Heron said the call was never clear. It was a burden and a conviction to help people, and he knew he was called to ministry before he knew in what capacity.

His test for the difference between calling and clout is simple: would you still pursue ministry if the passion died and no audience was watching?

Moses, and the theme that came first

Sammy pointed to Moses as proof that God's people rarely hold all the information. He noted that Moses thought he could activate his calling at 40, ended up killing an Egyptian and ran away. Then he spent 40 years as a shepherd before the burning bush at 80. Sammy shared his own version: at 17, at a youth camp, a speaker told him he was called to be a voice for a generation. He planned a gap year of six months, and he is still in ministry 20 years later.

Pastor Allen added another angle. He said we expect a burning bush moment, but Moses already had a theme of rescuer on his life: rescued as a baby, angry enough to kill an Egyptian, and willing to water Jethro's flock. Allen asked whether Moses' hesitation at the bush was insecurity or irresponsibility.

Allen saw the same pattern in himself. As a kid he gave his lunch and his money to others. Later, working in fitness, he realized a person could lose 20 pounds and gain it right back, but a life changed by an encounter with God could change the generations that follow. He looks back and sees that the theme was there long before it looked like ministry.

Sammy summed up what he took from both stories: the question is who is calling us. As he put it, "we're so focused on what our calling is, but not focused on who is calling us."

Why they stayed in the church

Sammy pressed Allen on why he stays in a local church when his TikTok has taken off and he could build a ministry on his own. Allen's answer: "it was Jesus that saved my soul, but it was the church that saved my life." He said a baseball coach and spiritual mothers and fathers sat in the gap for him.

Allen told of an older brother who was stabbed and killed when he was a kid. He had no consistent older figure after that, and people kept walking in and out of his life. So he led a group of middle school boys from sixth grade through graduation, about seven or eight years, and he shows up every week. Looking at a 16-year-old, he says, he thinks: I can't leave you.

He was also honest about the cost. He described seasons of hiddenness, along with criticism and backlash, and said some days he wants to go back behind the camera making other people look good. Still, he said, those planted in the house will flourish. Heron agreed, adding that growing up his dad called church the heart, something you need.

Faithful with three students

Heron said Jesus Club draws large crowds on high school campuses now, but it began 11 years ago with three students in a room. The club began as Real Talk, a place for real conversations open to everyone, including atheists and Muslims. His secret ingredient was generosity: free pizza, gift cards and candy for three students. Students invited friends and teachers heard about it. Now the team buys teachers breakfast, prays with them and sometimes leads chapel.

The hard part, he said, was staying consistent for a year or two with just three. He tied it to David bringing bread and cheese to his brothers, a small task done faithfully before God raised him up.

Heron also shared an early failure. His team brought a camp onto campus instead of going away, and 500 kids showed up. There were not enough bathrooms or showers, and food ran out the first day. They called McDonald's for 200 nuggets and 300 cheeseburgers in 30 minutes. His takeaway was that when he tries he fails and when he trusts he succeeds, and that he needed a team around him instead of doing it all alone.

Ask the generation above you

Allen described what happened when his young adult ministry asked older adults for help. A few elders with money and a house began hosting four young adults. By the end of one fall semester, from August to December, that group was 40. Some of these elders had sons around 28 and 30 who grew up in church, left after college and never came back. They said that if a place like this had existed, their sons might not have walked away.

Allen said his generation's problem is that they are afraid to ask, while the older generation assumes they are not needed. Now about 80 adults over 30 mentor young adults, and young adults serve in the youth ministry. He gave a simple example: one volunteer's job is to bring Little Caesar's pizza to a campus club. His advice to anyone who feels unneeded is that "your availability is your best ability."

The group also talked about the friends you need. Allen wants people who will say a sermon was off, and he knows he has to give them access and humility to say it. Both Heron and Sammy encouraged leaders to find friends outside their own church. Sammy then pointed to the Dead Sea, which is dead because it has no outlet, and urged listeners to pray, "God, would you give me my 3?"

Character, a lamp and a word from God

Sammy turned to Scripture for those who feel stuck and want a full five-year plan.

Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light for my path.

(Psalm 119:105, WEB)

He observed that it says a lamp for our feet, so it shows the next step. It does not light the whole road.

For his closing word, Heron gave the line that gave the episode its focus: "influence or clout or gifting opens the door. Calling keeps the door open, but your character keeps you in that room." He encouraged listeners to hide themselves in humility and integrity.

Allen added that beyond the word of God, it matters to get a word from God, and that a word will sound like His written word. He described a short Steven Furtick clip about leaving what is comfortable that changed his life when his faith was wishy-washy. He also named Ephesians 3:20 as a verse that frees his creative mind.

Now to him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,

(Ephesians 3:20, WEB)

He said he has been through a serious sickness in recent years, and that it taught him that "God can strip the ministry away and I still have Him."

What this means for you

You do not have to work in a church for this conversation to apply to you. If you feel stuck, the speakers point to a smaller first step than a five-year plan. Open your word, serve where there is a need, and stay long enough to be faithful.

Consider who your three might be: one above you, one beside you and one you could pour into. If you are older, ask whether a younger person in your church could use a table and a meal. If you are younger, ask whether you can offer to help. Sammy added that you can find mentors close to home and in history, and do not need to wait for someone famous.

Finally, ask yourself what you would keep doing if no one was watching. That answer, these pastors suggest, says more about your calling than a follower count does.