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July 8, 2026 · 33 min · Sleeping Giant
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Mind the Gap: Relationships Trump Programs 0:11 Hey, guys. Welcome back to session 5 of the sleeping giant training experience. As I mentioned in our last session, your pathway provides you with a strong leadership engine.0:22 Okay? But the gap between success and failure depends on the connection your leaders have with the men while they are on that journey.0:35 And having helped hundreds of churches, let me just say that it's a gap that's very easily overlooked. So in this session, I wanna be that friendly voice that offers a specific0:47 reminder here in the middle of the process so that you reach the destination of a solid men's ministry. So here's the reminder. Are you ready? Mind the gap.0:59 Okay? This message of paying attention to something mid process so you can successfully arrive at your destination is exactly where we are right now in the1:11 sleeping giant process. You see, what I've noticed is that there's this habit churches have. And it's very subtle, and it's this. Churches trust tools. They1:22 trust strategy. They trust program, and they trust process while at the same time forgetting to foster the deep relationships needed to make1:34 strong community a reality. And in the churches we work with, it's not hard to spot these cart of program and tactics being placed before the horse of1:46 relationships churches. The key concept is this, A strong spiritual pathway does give you cohesion, but a strong relationship infrastructure drives everything1:58 forward and gives it meaning. K? Possess possessing a heart to reach men, that's good. But without a healthy personal account of relational capital with your men throughout your2:09 ranks, no amount of heart is gonna win success there. So I need to put you, the core team. Okay? I need to put it to you, the core team, very straight and I want you to2:21 hear me. The quality of the relationships among the men in your ministry is the gap between success and failure with your guys. And as we leave the platform of strategy2:34 to advance into the real area of implementation, I wanna be that voice. Again, that offers you the reminder that will ensure that you achieve2:46 your goals. Okay? And remind you that just as people in a hurry fail to mind the gap closely because their mind is focused on other things, churches fail. You need to know2:58 this. Churches fail to mind the gap of relational depth within their men's ministries because they just have other priorities on their minds. And when that happens, the priorities of3:09 the ministry take precedence over cultivating strong personal relationships and connections. Here's what happens. Those other things steal your energy. They divert your3:21 attention over to things like committees and events and meetings and projects. Okay? And after seeing that happen and experiencing these3:33 types of men's cultures, 1 thing I've discovered is there's a very uncomfortable reason for that style. The other priorities make less emotional3:45 and physical demands on the men than real relationship building. In other words, relationships are messy, and the prospect of that scares us away from3:57 entering the lives of men in an authentic way. So seemingly by default, but really by intention, the men's leadership team emphasizes anything other than4:09 1 on 1 relationship building because, awkward pause, it's easier. Now what do I mean? It's easier to answer4:21 bible questions than answer personal questions. It's easier to coordinate events than be responsible for really getting to know another man. It's easier4:32 to advise a man biblically than love a man biblically. It's easier to focus on what we know as guys than actually being known ourselves. It's easier to talk about4:44 a process than actually live out the process in community with other men. It's easier to exercise authority and accountability than to extend affirmation4:57 and acceptance. It's easier to preserve our schedules than reserve time for people in the midst of our schedules. It's easier to point someone to a book for a solution5:09 than personally be the solution right now. It's easier to keep that safe distance than to be a safe harbor for other men. It's easy to ask men to, hey,5:21 step up for the mission than to step into their lives to minister. I think you get the point. But just in case you don't, here it is. There is no such5:33 thing as a strong but relationally shallow men's ministry. So I'm gonna remind you again, mind that gap of relationships. Let me5:45 give you a recent experience I had with 2 churches I'm working with to show what it looks like in real churches. So in 1 church in Florida,5:57 a guy tells me, Kenny, I just don't understand. Let's call him Bill. Okay? And accompanying Bill's words were a red face and this frustrated expression. You see, Bill's hot6:09 under the collar, and he's got a burr under his shorts over the lack of commitment among the men in his church to help with a ministry project he's involved with on an Indian reservation. So what does he do? He details6:21 the project for me, and he expresses his his heartbreak over the plight, of the condition of the folks. And after a few minutes, I realize that Bill's pain is6:33 self inflicted. I realized that his anger was about his failure to keep his commitment to the people of the reservation. A commitment he made without a6:44 strong personal network of relationships to support that commitment. Okay? So the men he asked all but said by their non response to Bill,6:57 get in line, pal, as in get in line behind my small group, get in line behind the kids ministry, get in line behind the homeless shelter, get in line, you know, in line behind the local school and my Facebook friends7:09 with all their causes, get in line, behind all the hard recruiting teen moms on all my kids' sports teams asking me for my time. So Bill7:20 finally punctuates his seizure of men's ministry frustration by saying, and I sent them all a personal email too. Okay. Let's review the facts.7:32 No personal investment in any of the men. No conversations with them besides his pitch for his project, no knowledge of their family makeup,7:44 relationships, or commitments there, no connections with them outside of church, no shared spiritual journey, No shared victories. No shared battles in common.7:57 No relational capital. No wonder. Now I want you to meet Pete. And Pete is working the sleeping giant process in his church.8:09 He calls me and he tells me that he and all his guys, right, are going downtown to partner with the church's motel ministry this weekend. And all of them are bringing their families.8:21 Pete's been meeting with them weekly as their get healthy phase group leader every Wednesday for the past 24 weeks. He's personally walked with several of8:33 these guys through very private struggles in their family, in their marriages, in their personal life. Pete's had him over to his house 3 different times for barbecue and football games. He8:44 finds time in his busy schedule as a real ace real estate sales guy to meet with several of the guys 1 on 1 during the week. He celebrated many8:56 victories and transformations and listened and counseled his guys through repeated defeats. Now when these guys come to their Wednesday meeting, they are greeted9:08 every week by Pete's famous, hey, bro. Give me some love. And his power handshakes, and he hugs them, and he gives them his whole, you know, Pacific Island vibe. He9:19 opens God's word. He prays with them. He does life with them. So unlike Bill, when Pete asked a few of these guys to accompany him and his wife, Stacy,9:31 to the motel ministry downtown, out of 51 dudes, 48 said yes, and they're bringing their families. Now what9:43 every pastor and man working with men needs to learn from our man Pete is this. When you make authentic relational deposits, there9:55 is powerful relational capital to spend on strategic asks. And back to my reminder to you, Pete is minding the10:07 gap between success and failure very well. You see, when a church has a strong vision for the men, when they have strong funnelsBill vs. Pete: Relational Capital in Action 10:18 that attract them, when they have a strong spiritual pathway, okay, for the guys, but it's still failing to grow and reproduce. The 1st thing I look at and examine is the relational dynamic10:30 between its leaders and the men who come under their care. And with rare exceptions, if that leader has paid what I call the relationship tax,10:42 success requires in the form of investing personally in the lives of his guys, knowing their journeys, and engaging them outside of the formal structure, then10:54 that leader usually produces what I call sticky men. That means that the relational bond has transcended just knowledge. It's transcended sin11:05 management and superficial levels of connecting as guys, and it's totally morphed into something much more genuine. And here it is, masculine intimacy.11:17 Now what do you need to know about that? All other pieces of the process may be in place, but if you do not pay close attention to the relational culture and the quality of the relationships11:29 among the men, your results in the lives of men will suffer. Now hear me. If you don't do the relationships right, you're not gonna do the process right.11:41 And this principle of not doing the relationships right and not getting the process right, it's magnified 100 times for the simple reason that men prefer to keep relationships11:53 on the surface while privately craving authentic masculine connections. So my guy, Pete, he taps into that. And when his12:05 men experience it, watch out. Why? Because most of them have never experienced the love of another healthy man12:17 in a healthy way. So not only is step 5 of the sleeping giant process difficult to pull off with your leadership, it's difficult for you to pull12:28 off as a core team member or as a pastor. And I look at myself. Thankfully, I have been re fathered by God and by12:40 caring men who, in my life, who love Christ and who have pastored me and mentored me. As a result, I learned to extend that same care and12:52 that same concern and spiritual fathering to other men around me, including my leadership team. But as a survivor of sorts,13:04 it's been difficult for me personally. It's also been very rewarding, in the journey as a man. So let me make my point here. The stepping stone and13:15 struggle of step 5 of the sleeping giant process is gonna be highly personal for you and possibly life transforming.13:27 Because a leader of men cannot create relational health among his men from a place of relational unhealth in himself. So13:39 my message to you as the core team, my message to the pastor, my message to this movement is a strong relational dynamic in your men's ministry starts with you.13:51 And once again, for ourselves and for the pastors retrain, the lesson's this, you can't give away what you don't possess. The 2nd lesson is your men's14:03 ministry leaders cannot give away what they don't possess. Alright? The spiritual lesson, if you're not doing relationships right, you can't be growing people14:14 right in God. And as the core team, not only do you need to mind the gap of relationships in your ranks like an astronaut watches his oxygen level, but you have to14:26 look into the mirror of your own lives and relationships to ensure that what you're teaching gets modeled with you. Here's why. Listen up. The more relational capital14:38 you have with your leadership, the more spiritual authority you have in their lives from God. 2nd, the more relational capital your leaders have14:50 with the men coming into your process, the more spiritual authority they have with those men to bring them through the process and into leadership. 3rd,Pay the Relationship Tax for Success 15:02 the more relational capital you have flowing in the water stream among your men, the faster they'll respond to initiatives and asks and needs15:14 in the church. And then the more relational health you have as a leader, the more step 5 of the sleeping giant process will become a reality with the men15:26 of your church. Now here's an angle on this that you need to consider. Satan is counting on men, even members of the core team, to run15:38 away from intimacy, especially with other men, which is the very thing that each man needs to make all the other kinds of intimacy in his life work.15:50 And as we train churches, we tell them that the time and the talk and the physical touch of real relationships with your men, slapping on the backs, give me some love. That's the16:02 tax you pay for success, and it will cost you. Okay? Churches and core teams that pay that relational tax explode with16:14 health and excitement. Why? Because healthy relationships are attractive, and it's what men want. So steps 1 through 5 in the process give you16:26 the foundation. They give you the architecture and the cohesion necessary for a solid men's community. This last step that we're gonna talk about in the sleeping giant process answers the16:38 the where question. As in, so where do you locate the men's process within the church structure? Where does it live and breathe most strongly? Where does it make sense for the men we16:50 are inviting into the process? I mean, do we do pure men's groups outside of home groups? Do we keep men in Sunday school? Where do men experience this process?Align with Church Structure and Pastors 17:05 Now those questions that I just asked, it's likely that you've never thought about many of those questions I just mentioned. But I guarantee your pastor is thinking17:17 about those. Trust me. Now the reason he's thinking about those types of questions is because he knows that any initiative, okay, under which men men's ministry fits.17:29 Your initiative in order to work can't create or add a new structure on top of what already exists in his church. And it's not that he's resistant. He's17:41 simply looking at it in the larger context, which you don't have to. And in the back of his mind, he's asking questions, individual ministries in the church, they don't have to ask. So when you17:53 say, pastor, we need to get men's ministry fired up in this church. In his heart, totally agrees. But in his mind, this is what he's asking. He's asking,18:04 okay. Will this men's initiative or strategy be be perceived in the church as an additional commitment of time or an integrated part of an existing commitment among the18:16 people. He's also thinking, okay. Will this proposed men's initiative disrupt in any way our existing infrastructure by creating an additional infrastructure of people18:28 and programs and community? He's also thinking this. Will the initiative have a positive impact on our existing initiatives and essential ministries, or is18:40 it gonna compete with them for time and for attention and visibility and people and and church resources? You know what he's also thinking? He's thinking this, will this proposed men's18:52 strategy help me achieve the core vision and mission? Or will it just end up becoming a club for a small group of people with no greater19:04 purpose than serving their own needs? He's also thinking, will the new ministry or the new angle on men's ministry cost me? Will it cost the church?19:15 Will it cost me more staff time to dedicate to it? Will it cost the church more energy and resources, or will it free up all of those things and mobilize more19:27 energy and resources for the church? Now why share that with you? Well, smart pastors demand answers to those questions before they commit to anything. And as the core team,19:39 if you address a pastor's risk upfront and address the structure question upfront, you're gonna create a ton of goodwill and cooperation19:51 from your pastor. When you can say, hey. We would like to build you a leadership engine for the church that gives you healthy leaders to drive the vision of the church, and then say, and pastor,20:03 you will not have to change the structure of the church at all. For this to happen, I mean, you you might get a reaction like I got from 1 pastor who said this to me. He leaned into me and said, god20:15 bless you. Why did he say that? Because in most cases, you know, pastors, you know, who who build their infrastructure don't want it to change. Okay?20:26 Now, what infrastructure works well with the sleeping giant model? Well, it works most explosively around small group concepts and dynamics.20:39 And let me explain and define what I mean by small group concepts and dynamics. By this, we mean that churches, who subgroup their members outside of the weekend services for the20:51 purposes of worship and fellowship and discipleship. K? Now what makes those groups different? Well, what makes the small group model different is that it seeks to take21:03 advantage of places where men are already gathered or meeting. K? And these these subgroups go by various names and have subtle differences and, but the common21:15 denominator is it's it's drawing people from the congregation into smaller units to advance relational connection and foster spiritual growth. Now in your church,21:27 that might be Sunday school group, grow group, table group, life group, small groups, affinity groups, community groups, cell groups, discipleship groups,21:39 care groups, home fellowships, or family groups. Okay? So they go by a lot of different names, but those are churches that have churches that have those are are churches21:51 of small groups. Okay? At Saddleback Church where I pastor the men, you can't feel connected on a deep level at 1 of our weekend services. Okay? That's why I like telling the story of my22:02 pastor starting the church in a small group bible study in a small condo with 7 people. And then fast forward 30 years later, seeing how we're still committed to the small group22:14 concept, just like that 1st meeting in over 3000 homes all over, you know, our area. K? What's my point? It is impossible22:27 to feel connected in a crowd even if that crowd's only 50 people on a Sunday. K? The congregation that you have, great for worship, but you can't provide the personal attention and accountability that22:39 sub grouping into smaller groups provides. So whether you have a Sunday school model, you have a small group model, or you have a life group model, the goal is to have a safe place for men to22:50 start connecting. And eventually, start tracking into your leadership development pathway. K? So connecting with men on a smaller scale23:02 not only achieves that goal of attention and accountability, but it also achieves the goal of spiritual health. Okay? And it allows you to care for that guy and you have a23:14 location for him. Lastly, it provides a continuous and active connection point for new guys who come in and are reached through your ministry23:26 to start the process in your church. That's why at Saddleback Church, we're always messaging to the men in the congregation. Get in the group. Get in the group. Get in the group. And we base that on their23:38 relational situation. K. If they're married, we advise them to get in a group with other couples. If they're single, we advise them to meet in a small group with other singles. We tell them to get in a group because we23:49 know that there, there will be a group of men within that group that they can start connecting with on a deeper level while being with others in their24:01 relational season of life. So my point is this, Arm and structure at Saddleback is purposed to work with the small group infrastructure24:12 and not against the church structure. So on this whole topic of alignment with small group concepts, the goal in the sleeping giant process is to have24:25 1 message to men initially and 1 holding place for men to just start the process, or else an unhealthy dynamic starts flowing between24:36 men's community groups and couples community groups and and pure men's groups. You'll have competing communities. And that's what happened in our church between men's ministry and couples ministry. Not only were we24:48 competing for bodies in our groups, we were also competing for calendar, for budget, for visibility, for priority, and for advocacy as 2 distinct ministries25:01 within the same church. And guess who that put in the middle? That unfairly caught men in our church who were then forced to choose between, do I go to a pure men's25:13 group or do I get in a couple's group? Why? Limited time. K. And I wanna press the pause button on that for just a 2nd. That is the issue in most churches. If25:24 guys have 1 place, they're gonna be. K? Put between the rock and the hard place. Men will choose groups that include their wives even though they may not get the25:36 experience of a peer men's group and that kind of transparities to you that goes with it. Why? Because that's their family. So for me, instead of feeling defeated, okay, by this kind of25:48 competing communities, we were doing well. And make no mistake, people were being led to Christ. Good things were happening. Our group's team kept searching for ways to use the structure of where men are and that26:00 tendency to go with the wife and family to solve some of these pervasive and unresolved problems that I talked about earlier. K? And I have to confess,26:12 I was I got discouraged and I was almost out of ideas until I finally saw it. And you're thinking, what'd you see, Kenny? Well, listen very closely to what I am going to say. K? This is the26:24 angle that changed everything. If your church has small groups, any kind of small groups, k, for every couple's group or family26:35 group that forms, In that group, follow me, in that group is a women's group and a men's group that is laying dormant within that family or couples group. And so26:47 what we did is we simply needed to train our existing couples and family based groups to subgroup into those men's and women's groups and just26:59 resource them where they were, provide bridges for those gender based groups to connect to our pathway. So here's what I discovered. For every couple's27:11 group, which we had thousands, there's a men's group in there incubating inside of those couple's groups. And so all I needed to do is to intentionally activate those pockets of men, get27:23 them connecting, and then train future group leaders to subgroup intentionally by gender as a healthy behavior. K? Now, what did that do for our church? That27:35 decision to subgroup men already in groups solved a ton of problems on a lot of levels. The 1st problem it solved is that it eliminated the need to have pure men's groups as27:47 our core strategy. K? It's still a strategy, but it it morphed. It's not our core strategy anymore. If a guy's married, we told him to join a couple's group or a family group because we knew he27:59 would be encouraged to connect with the men of that group on a regular basis. So if a guy is married, get in a couple's group is the singular direction because we know that he will be encouraged to28:11 subgroup. And when he sub subgroups, he connects with the men of his group. Number 2, it eliminated that unhealthy dynamic that we discovered of men not being honest in the presence28:22 of women and keeping secrets. We could intentionally subgroup within these social networks so that men could address the issues with each other. They were reluctant to mention in the presence28:34 of women. Number 3, men were now in community with each other and in proximity to the other spouses and children of the28:46 other men. And you know what that provides? Meaningful transparency and accountability because they see the lives of the other men's spouses as their friends.28:58 Number 4. Women would know the men in their husband's men's group. K? Why? Because they're in community. They'd they'd know the wives. The husbands would know the wives. Everybody would know each29:10 other's lives, and everybody would be more supportive of the connection of people they knew. Number 5, and this is the most critical thing, time. It's the29:21 most precious commodity a man has. And in this model of subgrouping, you conserve time by only having to commit to 1 set of relationships29:33 and friendships versus 2 sets. Okay? In a couple small group or a family based group, the man has a life group and he has a men's group29:45 all in 1. K? The wife's needs are met. The man's needs are met. The couple's needs are met, and the children of the families are exposed to healthy spiritual community. K? Number 6, and this is very important29:57 for the church infrastructure. The church escapes what we call the silo effect, and ministries stop competing and they start cooperating for the health of the30:08 individual and for the health of the group. Number 7, church health, group health, and individual health of the member goes up30:20 dramatically. So every church with small groups is sitting on a gold mine for men's ministry. You just gotta activate30:32 it within your structure. More importantly, a church built on small group community possesses that solid structure that's needed to direct people from the weekend structure, which meets their needs for worship,30:44 to the small group structure, which meets their needs for fellowship, and then into the leadership structure as men and women. So now you know why some of my pastor30:56 friends say to me, God bless you. When I tell them they don't have to change their infrastructure, they're so relieved. They don't have to change their structure at all to have an explosive31:08 and productive men's ministry in their churches. They just need a new angle on the existing structure. And let me just say, the next generation of men's ministry in in the31:20 church is already sitting right there. It's incubating within all of these small group structures just waiting to be activated, directed, and31:32 mobilized by you. So pastors who come to this realization, they say, God bless you because they see the sleeping giant right there in their church already and a31:44 new move of God. That's what I want you to know in the church. So let's review the sleeping giant process. 1 to 6. Step 1, strong mission and vision. You31:56 gotta paint the target. Step 2, strong alignment with your senior senior pastor. Okay? His success is your success. Step 3, strong funnels that resonate32:07 with men. Pain, purpose, power, people, and play loaded directly into your process. Step 4, strong spiritual pathway. Remember,32:20 inspiration with progression. Step 5, a strong relational core. Remember, relational capital is required to ask for32:32 commitment. And then step 6, strong alignment with small group concepts. Now in our next session, it's time to see what a fully orbed32:43 sleeping giant model looks like in real time among the men in the community and in the congregation. And then we just simply need to assess where you are, assess what you32:55 have, and what the next step for your core team will be. It is go time. So we'll see you at session 6.In this video 0:00 Mind the Gap: Relationships Trump Programs10:11 Bill vs. Pete: Relational Capital in Action14:51 Pay the Relationship Tax for Success16:55 Align with Church Structure and Pastors56K followers
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