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The Middle Years of Marriage - Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage
December 1, 2025 · 45 min
On this episode, Greg and Erin talk to Larry about his journey of understanding the deeper purpose of marriage, love based on God's love rather than reciprocation, and insights into being intentional.
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Navigating the Middle Years: From Expectations to Rediscovery 0:00 The the middle generation are like gatekeepers to the children.0:03 Yeah.0:03 They're the ones who either can borrow the older generation of grandparents from the kids or they're the ones who can open the gate and say, we invite you to join us in helping to impact these young0:15 ones for God's glory and their good. And so I encourage the parents, the middle generation, to think through how can I clearly communicate to my parents or my parents in law that we would love for them0:27 to join us in influencing our kids?0:36 Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Greg Smalley.0:40 And I'm Erin Smalley. When we first get married, often we're busy building our households, raising kids. But today, we're gonna talk about a different season, and that's the middle years of0:52 marriage. Oftentimes, there can be health struggles and, you know, we're talking about retirement or maybe caring for aging parents. And often in this stage, boredom is something1:04 that can set in. And we're gonna talk about that today and how to really guard against that.1:09 Yeah. And I tell you for me, as we approach kind of those middle years of our marriage, I mean, you aren't. I am. As I approach that, it it the temptation would be, well, I'm not in that season,1:21 so I'll just listen to a different episode. I'm telling you what, you're gonna wanna hear this because everything that Larry is gonna talk about, it it it's such great advice. It it's like you get1:33 the front row seat to a very seasoned marriage pro who's giving such incredible advice. So so don't go anywhere. You're gonna wanna hear what1:45 Larry has to say. And then a little bit later, we're going to talk about how to continue to pursue wonder, not only in your marriage, but also in life as well. And then we1:57 have a listener's email, and she's gonna ask how to really persuade her husband on how to get some counseling. So there's some things that he's going through that she sees.2:09 It it could be such a good thing for him to do that. So, obviously, that's an awkward, you know, conversation. Yeah. I mean, you tell me this all the time. So I'm really gonna let you answer this question.2:20 So today's guest has served as the pastor at Christ Covenant Church in Winona Lake, Indiana since 19 81.2:29 Mhmm.2:29 Wow.2:30 It's amazing.2:30 He's also the director of Walking Like Jesus Ministries, and he and his wife, Gladine, have been married for 50 years. He's written a book called A Seasoned Marriage, Living the Gospel in the Middle2:42 Years and Beyond. And we started the conversation with Larry by asking him what was the reality and the expectations when you first got married?2:52 Well, I think when we first got married, we were like a lot of young couples. We felt like we were in love and couldn't wait to get married. We were young. Gladying was not yet 20. She was 19. I had just turned 21. Okay.3:04 We were trying to finish college and seminary. And the Lord is kind to us to, protect us from our youthful selves. Right. But I think really, we came into marriage thinking, oh, this person's going to3:16 make me happy for the rest of her life, for the rest of his life. And the Lord had to teach us along the way that there's more to marriage than that.3:22 Yeah. Because that that's a very common Mhmm. Thing. I was, you know, I will lament or groan as we watch these, you know, romance comedies. It just seems like every3:34 single time we watch something romantic, it's like a requirement that at some point someone's gonna say, well, I just I just want you to be happy. And and it's just3:46 it's just it seems like that's built into our consciousness as couples. So what did you guys learn about that in terms of, you know, well, just, you know, let's just3:58 focus on being happy.3:59 Well, Greg, thanks for asking. It was a painful journey. I'll see it that way. Yeah. We got so busy with life that I think for about 20 years, we were doing fairly well. But about 20 years in, we bottomed4:11 out. And there'd not been any cataclysmic crisis in our lives. It was just like I use the analogy of, like, a hot air balloon that's lost its heat. Yeah. And, the balloon of our marriage just kinda gradually4:23 descended, and the gondola of our marriage is just bumping along the ground of life. Mhmm. And, I think we realized at that point that we needed to reassess why are we married. Not that we wanted out Yeah. But to4:35 reassess the whole purpose of marriage. Mhmm. And the Lord had to teach us that, at least for me, I was being very self centered. I expected Gladine to make me happy. Yeah. She did make me happy, but4:47 not all the time.4:48 Well, especially with her name, you would think you would be focused.4:51 To learn from scripture what god's purpose was for our marriage.4:55 Yeah. That that makes sense, especially with her name being Gladine. That would Yeah. She would be focused on making you glad and happy. What was that so was there a moment5:07 that you guys sat down and had that conversation? Like, it was just a gradual thing, or was there, like, a moment that you both kinda knew that, oof, this isn't going well?5:17 Well, I think the answer is kind of a little bit of both, Greg. Okay. There was a point in their season where we realized we had bottomed out. We weren't happy in our marriage. We had 3 kids at home at that point.5:29 Yeah. 3 teenagers probably. And, about that time, fun story, we met an older gentleman whose wife was in the latter stages of Alzheimer and living in a nearby nursing home. Mhmm. And, we got to5:41 know him. And even though he was still of good health, he would go to the nursing home every day Wow. And care for his wife. And he would help the staff spoon feed her. He would help sponge bathe her, change her diapers,5:53 and he would sing love songs to her. And I remember, you know, I'm in my early forties, and I'm looking at this older gentleman thinking, how does that work? How can this man love a woman who6:05 isn't doing anything for him? He's not making him happy. She doesn't remember his name.6:10 Wow.6:11 And it was about that same season. Here was the moment that the Holy Spirit got my attention with a verse in the Bible that's not technically or at least directly about marriage. First John 46:22 19. We love because he first loved us, and the light started coming on. Greg and Aaron went, I realized Bob loved his wife, not because his wife was loving him.6:35 He loved his wife because he was confident overflowing with God's love for him through Jesus Christ. Wow. And that's when the Lord got our attention and kind of began turning us around. And so6:46 30 years later, we're, not that we don't have any struggles. We still do. But here we are in our older years happily hand in hand still married.Loving Like Christ: Submission, Leadership, and Gospel Transformation 6:55 And so your hot air balloon has ascended.6:58 Yes. And we're glad, Aaron.7:02 Yes. And Gladine is really glad. So as you're talking about scripture, the the verse as Christ loved the church, and you write about seasoned7:13 marriage, how did that all unfold? How did you really gain understanding?7:18 Yeah. Well, I have a book written called Loving Your Wife as Christ's Love Mhmm. Church. And, you know, it's interesting, Erin, that even though I had written on that subject, I had taught on that subject, I7:30 still was so self centered at times and not loving her the way Christ loves us, but that was more pressuring her to love me better. Mhmm. And, yeah. What I love to see in the book of Ephesians is7:42 how in the first half of that book, there's all these descriptors, all these descriptions of God's amazing grace to us, his love for us. And then you get to that pivot halfway through the book where Paul says, now walk7:54 worthy of that. And you say, what does that look like? Well, you read the last 3 chapters, and there's a lot of explanations of what difference that makes. Include this. Wives, submit to your husbands. What's the next8:05 phrase? As to the lord. Yeah. And what does this husband's husband love your wives just as Christ loves the church. And the holy spirit through the apostle keeps taking us vertical. You know, it keeps taking us8:16 vertical. Look at what God's done for you. Now love each other that way. Mhmm. And that transforms a marriage. It's trans transforming ours. I'll use the present part of that way. It's still transforming our marriage.8:27 Realizing that as we rest in his grace, as we marinate in his gospel, seeing how much he loves us, it transforms our marriages.8:35 Mhmm. Because, Larry, 1 of the things that Aaron and I have been surprised by lately, we do a lot of premarital counseling with couples. And it seems I don't know again why this is now, but we're8:47 hearing the questions more and more about so what what did what did Paul mean by submission? What does he mean by leadership? Mhmm. As you talked about that, give8:59 some definition. Like, what what what does that mean? What does that look like then within the marriage?9:04 Well, taking it in sequence there even in Paul's writing in Ephesians 5, the woman is addressed first, wife, submit to your husbands as to the lord. And that whole word of submission has the idea of coming underneath9:14 someone to support him, to support his leadership, to to encourage him as he seeks to lead the family. And I think a lot of times, I understand why my wife would struggle following me at times. I look at my own9:26 unworthiness. I look at my own weaknesses and think it would be really hard to be my wife. You know, but she does. But the the key is that she looks at me and9:38 she doesn't support my leadership because of my worthiness. She supports my leadership because of the worthiness of Christ. And husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church, or I like to translate9:50 it just as Christ loves the church. And my wife's a wonderful wife, but you know, she's not perfect. And there are days that are can I just say it bluntly? There are days it's harder to love her than other days. So10:02 I don't love my wife because she's always lovable. I don't love my wife because of her worthiness. I love my wife because of Christ's worthiness. And that resting in him, keeping our10:14 focus on him gives a consistency, a joy in marriage that I don't think will come if we just, keep it on the horizontal plane and think if you love me enough, I'll love you enough. And if I don't think you're loving me10:25 sufficiently, then how do you expect me to love you sufficiently? But if we turn our gaze upward and gaze at his love for us, there's there's overflowing love. There's always more than enough love. We love our spouse10:37 on our worst days.10:39 So what does that look like for you? Because that that that's such beautiful advice. It's it's we're we're talking about the vertical, so our relationship with the Lord. So over the years, I imagine10:52 maybe that looks different now than it did maybe when you were a younger husband. How has that changed maybe for you, your relationship with the Lord over all these years?11:04 Oh, boy. Thanks for asking, Greg. You know, I think even more recently, I've been realizing I'm more in touch with my own sin, my own weaknesses, and I think that's the work of the Holy Spirit in my life.11:16 That when my wife confronts me about something, my tendency over the years to be candid, my tendency has been to be very, very self defensive. You you got me wrong, Gladaine. You know, I'm11:28 actually a good guy. You should be glad you're married to me.11:31 I'm sure that goes well.11:33 You could have done a lot worse.11:35 We all I hey. I'm right there with you. I well, I mean, Aaron probably wouldn't admit that I defend myself, but yes.11:43 No. But I think what the Lord's been doing, I call it the safety of the gospel. When I realized that my acceptance with God is not based on my worthiness, my acceptance with God is based on what Christ has done in my11:55 place. Mhmm. That because he lived for me, because he died for me, because he rose again for me, The father is smiling at me 24 7. Not because I'm a good guy, but12:07 because Jesus Christ stands in my place. If I really believe that, then if my wife points out some fault in my life or some sin in my life, some mistake in my life, My longtime history12:19 has been to be defensive. But now I'm still defensive sometimes. Let's be honest.12:24 But Greg is too.12:25 Dependency increasingly is to lean in more and say tell me more or or even if I'm not ready to receive it, at least be quiet Mhmm. And process it before the Lord. Lord, what do you want me to12:37 learn from what my wife is saying to me here? And it's making our marriage sweeter, and I we still have our moments. But I think our marriage is getting sweeter as we lean more into God's grace more consistently.12:50 And, we're so thankful he's teaching us more about who he is and what he's done on our behalf.12:55 Mhmm. So go back to the days of raising kids. And, of course, kids can take a lot of time and energy. And were there times as you were in that season of raising13:07 kids that you guys maybe felt exhausted and worn out and disconnected? And how did you work through that?13:15 Yeah. Well, Erin, the answer is yes. There were plenty of times we felt overwhelmed. We have 3 kids, they're great kids. They're believe it or not, they're all in their forties now. And, they have kids that are grown.13:27 But, when we were raising our kids, it was a busy season like it is for most parents. And I think in those times, we were focused more on raising our kids. I've been a pastor for a long time,13:39 and, and I think pouring ourselves in the ministry, pouring ourselves with other people, and then being homeowners, and taking care of our home, all these things I think looking back, I think there were plenty of13:51 times when we were not working on our marriage. And every so often, we would go to a marriage conference or we had a long history of just reading books on marriage together. You know? And we would feel encouraged or even14:02 convicted. We need to focus more on our marriage. So we would look for times to date or get away for a couple days, someone else stay with the kids. But still, I wish looking back, Erin, I think we would have put14:14 I wish we would have put more time into our marriage while we're raising kids to make that time, to be together and to focus on 1 another and how we can encourage 1 another. But thankful for the times we did have.14:27 Sounds sweet. And that the time together would have really brought you closer together. And, of course, here you are 50 years later.14:36 Yes. We're not young any longer. You know, we're starting to grow on each other.14:41 It does happen.14:43 You tell a story about a time where I I I think either a young man or a young couple kind of approached you guys to to mentor them, and it kinda was a a shocking14:55 moment for you guys. Tell us what what what happened.14:59 1 thing I realized when we're getting older is the tendency of older people is to think young people don't wanna be around us. Yeah. You know, they they don't wanna be around old people. They wanna be around their peers.15:09 And there there are young people like that. But what we're discovering is there are plenty of young people out there who want to be around older folks. And, I'm 1 of 6 pastors in our church. Okay. And we're15:21 I'm 1 of the oldest. And, I was surprised when this young couple came to us and said, would you to do our premarital counseling? Would you mentor us for our upcoming marriage?15:33 And we were a little bit taken aback because we thought, well, there's younger guys on staff. Aren't you more drawn to the pastors in their early forties or the ones that are around 30? Why are you coming to us? We're in15:44 our seventies. And, we asked the young couple, why did you wanna meet with us? We've done a lot of premarital counseling over the years, but it's waned in our older years. But they sought us out, and they said,15:56 we want to learn from you. We wanna learn from an older couple. We wanna hear about God's grace in your marriage over the years so that we can learn from you and how he's dealt with you. It was a really sweet time with16:07 that young couple, and we still stay in touch. He's in ministry across the United States from us now, but, we still stay in touch. So I'm just seeing how God's working in their lives.16:17 And I think that's so important for to to remember that that God is investing in us, in our marriage, the things that he's doing to grow us. I mean, we the things that we learn16:29 and how important that is, right, to to remember to to turn around and invest in other couples.16:35 Yes. Absolutely.16:37 Like, I encourage my peers, those of those of us that are in seasoned years, to have friends that are, if possible, ahead of you. And eventually, you get to a point where you're the oldest person in the room almost all16:48 the time. But if there's somebody ahead of you on the path of grace, they've been Christians longer, Hang with them some. Learn from them. Have people in your peer group, people that are walking the journey right16:59 alongside you, but also have people that are younger than you that you can pour into. And what better people than their own kids and grandkids? But in the local church, there are plenty of young adults, younger adults17:11 who would love to hang with an older couple to learn from them, hear their stories, stories of God's grace, hear about their mistakes.17:18 So what would you say are some of the common challenges you and Gladine have to work through in the older years of marriage? Mhmm.Seasoned Challenges: Mentoring, Grandparenting, and Enduring Romance 17:26 I think there's several issues that have come up in the last, we'll say, 5 years or so. Mhmm. 1 was caring for elderly parents.17:33 Mhmm.17:33 3 of our parents died rather suddenly. But my wife's mother, my mother, dear mother-in-law died slowly. Mhmm. She just kind of faded away, and we helped care for her. When17:45 we were young, we didn't anticipate the day would come when we would have to care for the people who cared for us. Mhmm. And yet, a lot of couples in their middle years and beyond and helping at least, helping their17:57 siblings care for mom or dad, and that's 1 issue that we faced. And it actually made us stronger because we learned we needed to work together to help mom. And, it was actually a blessing in our lives even though it met18:09 lots of trips because my mother-in-law was in Pennsylvania. We're in Indiana. But we're so thankful we had that. That's 1 issue that comes out. Empty nest is 1, obviously, that comes up. Your kids grow up. They leave18:20 home. How do you respond to that? Grandparenting. There's a lot of issues that come up in the latter season of life that you did not face in your marriage in the early years. Mhmm.18:29 Well, Erin and I are brand new grandparents. So we have our Congratulations. 3 first grandchild. So give us some tips. Mhmm. Like, what what have you discovered that18:41 really is helpful? What what have you learned? Like, oh my goodness. Don't don't walk down this trap.18:47 Greg, you're asking about 1 of my favorite subjects. Gladion and I are blessed with 7 grandkids. Mhmm. The oldest is 17, and the youngest is 6. And we get to see them18:59 a lot. We make trips. They make trips. We have video calls with them weekly. And so we stay in touch with all of our grandkids. But I think lessons grandparents need to learn and the the the main thing, and I I19:11 wanna sound passionate about this because I am, is I don't think many grandparents have given thought to what mission, what ministry has God given to grandparents. Most people think of grandparenting as just a lot of19:23 fun. Yeah. Spoil. Common statement is sweeten them up and send them home, spoil the grandkids and send them home. That's not our calling. Mhmm. And I love to take my fellow grandparents to the Psalms.19:34 Someone's Psalm 78, for instance, where the psalmist says that we won't hide the stories of God's greatness and grace from the coming generation, but we'll tell them his stories. And then in verse 7, it says, so19:46 that they should set their hope in God. So 1 lesson I hope all grandparents learn, including you 2, is that grandparenting is actually a ministry. Boys have a lot of fun. I'm not on any anti happiness19:58 campaign. But along with that fun is just this is missional that our our kids, the middle generation are the primary disciplers of their kids. But we20:10 grandparents come as a support team to them in helping raise their kids for God's glory and their good. And so to see the mission God's given us and to take delight into20:21 coming alongside our kids and encouraging the grandkids about the things of God. And and we we enjoy that very much. We have for years of pouring God's truth into our20:33 grandkids in a way that they can see as delightful, inviting. Gladying said 1 time, she said, you know, the grandkids won't remember everything we say. Boy, is that true? They won't remember everything we do, but you20:44 know what's gonna stick? You know what they're gonna remember? It's what we're passionate about. Wow. And, yeah, I think she's right. That's good. And so when the grandkids hang with us, when they're around us, what do20:54 they see us passionate about? And if they see us passionate about Christ and his glory, his word, his people, his church, then that's probably gonna have an impact on them. Jesus said that a21:06 student's not above his teacher. Yeah. But when every student's fully trained, he's gonna be like his teacher. And I think what he's saying there, he's not talking about classrooms. Mhmm. He's talking about doing life21:17 with your students so that they can learn from your life. And as we spend time with the grandkids, we want them to be influenced by this passion for the Lord, his word, his world, his people, and,21:29 and to stay and to think you know, that's a glorious mission to be honest grandparents.21:33 I love the encouragement of just yeah. You're gonna spoil him, but what is this really about? This is about legacy, about really imparting those stories of who god21:44 is. Talk to those who are listening who have grandparents. They're having kids, and now their parents are their kids' grandkids. You know, you hear so21:56 much about boundaries and, you know, all these limits that are placed on the grandparents themselves. How do you coach kind of the that younger generation of ideally,22:08 here's here's how that relationship with your parents as they become grandparents can be really healthy?22:15 Oh, it's a wonderful subject to talk about. You know, I realized let's give a caveat here that there are some in the middle generation, some parents of young children whose own parents are not following the lord, not22:26 living in his ways. Mhmm. And those are very difficult situations. But I think even in those situations, you can teach your grandkids to respect their grandparents, just for being grandparents, being older. But a lot22:38 of a lot of us in our circles, our Christian circles, grandparents also love the Lord. And so the the middle generation are like gatekeepers to the children.22:47 Yeah.22:48 They're the ones who either can borrow the older generation of grandparents from the kids, or they're the ones who can open the gate and say, we invite you to join us in helping to impact these young23:00 ones for God's glory and their good. And so I encourage the parents, the middle generation, to think through how can I clearly communicate to my parents or my parents in law that we would love for them23:12 to join us in influencing our kids? And, we sit down with our kids, every couple months. We'll just sit down. How are we doing as grandparents? Are there things you would like us to23:24 do more of? Are there things we'd like us to do differently? Are there things you'd like us to do less of? You know? And we wanna make sure we're not overstepping our bounds, but neither are we hanging up in the23:34 bleachers watching them, you know, play the game without us. We wanna be on the field as their support team.23:39 What a great question.23:40 Those intergenerational conversations.23:43 Yeah. What a great question. Because then as they give you the feedback, it gives you a direct pathway. Of this is how we can not only love the grandkids better, but how can we love you by loving the grandkids in a23:55 way that honors you? I'm sure such a connection point for you with your your adult kids. So talk to us about romance in a seasoned marriage. What does that look like? How has24:07 it changed? How do you continue to romance Gladine?24:11 What a great topic. Yeah. I think it it there is an intentionality there. And, I I think my wife is still beautiful at 70. And if you24:22 saw her photo, you would agree with me. She has mesmerizingly inviting eyes that caught my attention as a teenager, and they still do to this day. You know? And so but I think being24:34 intentional in expressing our love, through touch. I gave my wife a kiss this morning. A lot of times in the morning, you know, I'm usually up before she is and when she wakes up.24:46 So she'll give me a kiss. And usually, my kisses are too brief. And this morning, I kissed her longer. How about she said to me? She said, thank you for the kiss. Like, now that's a kiss. You24:58 know? So I think it takes intentionality.25:01 It's some lean dressing. Through kisses.25:03 Yeah. Yeah. Through touch, expressing it through our words, and, that we find delight in 1 another in our older years. I think too many couples have given way to what I call marital mutiny, and they25:15 just assume that's the way it is when you get older. That's that's just the way it is. Marriage is just hanging in there. It doesn't need to be. It can be full of delight and joy. Mhmm.25:25 Well, so sweet.25:27 What a vision is I think about just as Aaron and I, you know, as we grow older, as everybody does, just that idea of of being intentional. I think the my favorite thing that25:38 you've said was how just looking at her eyes and how they still mesmerize you. And and and, again, I think that's a part of the choice. Like, on my cell25:50 phone, you know, I I have Erin's name listed as beautiful wife. So every time she calls, it pops up. And it's just for me, I just I love that it's a constant reminder26:02 that, man, wow, I have a beautiful wife. Like you're saying, with Gladine that it's it's it's her eyes are mesmerizing. She's beautiful to you. And I think that's a powerful thing that we keep26:14 saying in in speaking Mhmm. Over us as well as our spouse.26:20 So are26:21 you26:21 saying I should take in case of emergency26:24 Yeah.26:24 Greg Smalley off of my phone?26:26 Right. Yes. Larry, what should Erin come up with as a name for me on her cell phone. Right? So let's help her figure that 1 out.26:35 What what would you like her?26:37 That's right. Thank you, Larry. Yeah. What would it be?26:42 You know, hottie or just studly studly. Yeah. Something like that.26:47 I'll have to work on that.26:49 But, Larry, thank you, seriously, for the, 1, I love the the vision for us as grandparents. Mhmm. Brand new, spanking brand new grandparents. I just I I love that, especially the27:01 advice of how can we support you and join in with you Mhmm. Raising these kids. I think that's just a fantastic way27:10 Yes.27:11 To frame that and to have those intentional conversations because that's probably part of the challenge for so many families. They don't talk about any of this. And then they get frustrated, then they get upset, then27:23 they start shutting down, boundaries show up. So we we just appreciate your wisdom.27:30 Yes. Thank you.Show more In this video 0:00 Navigating the Middle Years: From Expectations to Rediscovery6:54 Loving Like Christ: Submission, Leadership, and Gospel Transformation17:22 Seasoned Challenges: Mentoring, Grandparenting, and Enduring Romance27:32 Cultivating Curiosity, Legacy, and Healing in Marriage
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