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Affair Prevention & Recovery | Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage
August 13, 2026 · 35 min
Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley focus on infidelity with Brad and Tammy Miller. They discuss how couples drift through busyness, unmet emotional needs, validation-seeking, social media connections, and contrast emotional vs. physical affairs.
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The Drift to Infidelity: Causes and Fantasy 0:00 1 of the things Tammy often say is don't make life changing decisions in the middle of a crisis, and that is a crisis. Mhmm. So getting professional help is somebody who can say,0:11 let's slow down. Let's let's walk through this 1 step at a time. We're gonna figure this out together. It's gonna take some time, but we're gonna do it. But you've gotta get professional help.0:28 Joining us today are Brad and Tammy Miller. Not only is he an ordained pastor, but also a retired firefighter. Brad and Tammy have been married for over 40 years, and Tammy is a marriage and0:40 family therapist. Together, they head up Tandem Marriage, which is an organization dedicated to helping couples build healthy relationships. So Brad and Tammy, we're thrilled that you're here with us0:51 at Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.0:54 We are thrilled as well. Thank you so much for having us. This is a blast. Through yes.0:58 Well, we love having you. I know today, we're gonna be talking about infidelity in marriage. And so we we would love, 1, 1st to to understand, like, tell us where where did your passion Mhmm.1:10 For helping couples really recover from infidelity? Where did that come from?1:14 It doesn't sound like 1 of those things that somebody says, I'll sign up for that 1. We didn't.1:19 What do you wanna do? Let's start talking about infidelity. Yeah.1:22 Yeah. Yes.1:23 When our kids were our daughters were in junior high and high school, I went back to grad school and decided to go to school to be a clinical counselor, a marriage family therapist. And during my1:34 training and my, internship, 1 of the opportunities was to work on a fare recovery. I said, oh, that sounds great. And so I thought just put that in my, you know,1:46 on my 1 seminar. Just 1 seminar. Done. And I went. And when I went back to where I was interning, they said, gosh. We need this so bad. And suddenly,1:58 everybody they sent me was a fair recovery. Wow.2:02 You know how when when you know 0.5 an ounce more than anybody else, you're the expert. So that's that was the Pharisees.2:08 Yeah. Yeah. So why I'm just the type of person. It's like, why I need to know more. So I just dove in, and the person who originally, did the class that I went to actually took me under his wing2:20 and taught me a whole lot of things about it, and I just kept it going. And Brad and I started, working with some couples together. We opened a group practice. The the interns that wanted to come in and be a2:32 part of our group practice came because that's what they wanted to learn. So as crazy as it sounds, we became experts in that area and continue. Every time every time we say, okay. We2:44 don't wanna do this anymore. It's too hard. God says, no. I'll tell you when you're done. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And so then you guys call. Yeah. You guys call and say, you wanna talk more about it?2:54 It's our fault.2:55 We have to talk about it again. No. We But2:58 for for us, the goal really is that that thing where we say we want to work ourselves out of a job. Yeah. 100 percent. We wanna work ourselves out of a job. So we're gonna we're gonna keep at it till we have walkers and3:10 everything else. It doesn't matter. We're gonna keep it till we have walkers.3:14 Well, I'm thankful that you guys are doing this work because I know as a counselor as well that, I would say 25 to 40 percent of my caseload is, couples recovering from infidelity.3:26 So it's so needed. Who would you say is more susceptible to infidelity? And what are some of the more common reasons individuals give or couples give for, engaging3:38 in infidelity?3:40 I would say, in my experience, it's men who are more susceptible.3:44 Okay.3:45 But when women are done, they're done. Mhmm. Women men are more susceptible, but after they've been caught, after they realize what they've done, they often want to repair. But when women are done, they're3:56 often done. That's a that's a really tough 1.3:59 What makes men more susceptible then? What what's going on?4:03 I think it's just the fact that men, you know, we're we're built different by God. And I think, you know, women are typically the the emotional barometer. Women might be saying for years, hey. Something's4:15 off with us, and he says, yeah. Whatever. We're fine. We're aligned. And while he's coping in another way and getting some of his needs met, not healthy, not god honoring, but that's what we4:27 see happening a lot. And it it's gotta change. It's It's gotta change.4:32 Yeah. What then would be going on within the the marriage? So within the relationship maybe that caused people to to drift, to cause them maybe to turn to, you know,4:44 someone else and and get involved either in an an emotional affair or a physical affair?4:50 Great question. I loved that you used the word drift because that's exactly how we I was thinking we should start. Okay. We have noticed that just to kinda go back to the other question, we've noticed women are growling5:01 in number of of what we like to call betrayal, and and them betraying their spouse. And I think the cause is gonna be different for men and women.5:13 Although Brad hit hit the core root of it, they drift and you hit it too. They drift apart. And when they start to do that, they're in the hard phases of life, you know, maybe kids' careers, just bought a5:25 house, you know, just busy bills. And there's they're not prioritizing and protecting their marriage. And so the emotional needs of a woman are5:37 not met and perhaps also emotional in a different way men not be never feeling good enough. They search like, I'm not good enough. No one's noticing. No one's appreciating me. Women are feeling like I'm not a priority.5:49 I'm not important. And so they all of a sudden, someone says something typically with the opposite sex, that is exactly what's been missing in the marriage.6:01 Man, I I I hope your wife appreciates you. You sure are a hard worker. Man, you're you are such a kind, sweet person, or you're very pretty. I hope your husband, you know, knows that. And then now6:13 the thoughts, they start to ruminate and think about that and and how they wish their spouse was doing this.6:20 They start to justify it. My spouse doesn't give me this.6:23 Right. And, also, I think social media Erin, I'm sure you've noticed social media, you know, someone's connecting with old friends from high school. And someone says, oh, have I ever told you I had a mad crush on you?6:34 That's a direct message. Or suddenly, they're off the, you know, the main thread and they're off direct messaging. And next thing you know, they're gonna meet up. And and it just all starts to evolve into that's where6:46 the primary thoughts are focused. And they're looking forward to some way of connecting with that person again. So their focus is no longer on their spouse. It's on somebody else. And they're they're making room in their6:58 days and their lives for that connection. And it becomes the new priority. Yeah. The new drug.7:04 And I I may be I may be jumping ahead just a little bit, but I I think it's important to note that oftentimes when we're doing the repair and recovery work with a couple, most of the time, I should7:16 say, things come out where there were deficits in their marriage early on. There's been things they've been sweeping under the rug and not dealing with. And and so twofold, it becomes that that was a part of what led up7:28 to, not not a justification, but that's part of what led up to. And, also, that's a part of, repairing and getting things back on track so that they can be better than they ever were before. In other7:39 words, you know, we would say the 4 of us would say, gosh, if we could help couples realize those things beforehand and never go there, let's do that. But unfortunately, it doesn't often happen that way.7:51 Yeah. Because, of course, what we all know is that the enormous pain that infidelity leads to. It's it's a massive recovery process, but it's so8:03 possible. How do you guys address? Because as you were talking, Tammy, I was thinking, you know, that, you know, as you were describing, individuals begin to ruminate and to really perseverate on the thought of that8:14 other person. And in some ways, it's described kind of as this fantasy land. How do you describe that to couples? Because it's it's not based in the reality of everyday8:26 life. How do you describe that?8:29 Actually, it's it's funny that you ask that. I'll typically say, remember when you were about 16 and you're sitting in the car with, you know, maybe a boyfriend or a girlfriend and you're on a date and you dream about8:40 all the things that you will be when you grow up 1 day, that's kind of what an affair is. Well It's that fantasy that you could be anybody, anything. Because that person8:52 that you're having this either emotional or physical affair with doesn't know that you leave your underwear on the floor or that you forget to change toilet paper roll or that the night before you had9:04 vomit all down the front of you from your 3 year old. They don't know those things.9:08 Nor do they have to deal with that.9:09 Right.9:10 Yeah.9:10 They they don't know that you, you know, missed a electric bill. They don't know those things. So it's just like that teenager. It's like, I will never, and I I'm gonna be in it's this daydreaming and you're9:22 thinking, oh, you complete me. You're basing. You know? That's what they start to to come back to that feeling that used to feel so good that God intended to be temporary and9:34 grow us through the hard stuff that some people say.9:36 Yeah.9:36 I'm out.9:37 That makes sense.9:38 I really like that that analogy in that description of it.9:42 Yeah. Because when we're talking infidelity, there's obviously emotional affairs and physical affairs. Kinda talk about the difference.9:52 Yeah. Again, I would say men, mostly physical affair affairs. They're getting a physical need met. You know, 1 of the tools we use often with couples is love languages. It's very helpful. Yeah.10:04 Men, I'd say 85 percent of men, their top or or 1st or 2nd level language is physical touch. So, you know, that's something that they're seeking after. That's something that they very10:16 easily notice is missing, and it's something that they can very easily compartmentalize and say, hey. I'm I'm gonna put that in a box over here and get that need met while I'm still being, you know, I think, a good10:27 husband over here. But then for women, you know, it's more the emotional need. Of the couples that we've worked with, it's very easy for a man to be caught, to feel, very remorseful,10:39 genuinely remorseful, and say, I I wanna repair this. And he's all in. But the emotional component for a woman is, man, there's just been a a hurricane that ripped through our lives, and I don't10:51 know. I don't know which way is up. I I don't know what this looks like. It's and it sort of takes her some time to catch up. And really part of that, goal for us is to while she's hanging on and we're11:03 trying to, you know, find a ray of, sunshine or hope for her is we're building some trust and just helping to paint the picture of what that can look like on the other side. And in the midst of that, they see that there11:15 were problems there to begin with, which then makes which then that hope is this can actually be better than it ever was before. Well, while you wouldn't wish this on anybody, this can actually be better than it was11:27 before.11:27 Because of the work that you do in the recovery is what makes you better than you ever could have been, not the result of betrayal.11:35 Yeah.11:36 That's a good differentiation. And I always say, isn't it just how God says throughout scripture that there's blessings through trials? And this is a huge11:48 tsunami goes off. And, as they're traveling through this, it's hard to imagine the the blessing that could come from this. But it's awesome to have people walking12:00 with those couples to say, we can have hope that you're gonna experience that someday.12:05 We worked with a couple that was that had a church couple. They had been married over 50 years. And for over 0.5 of that, he wasn't involved in an affair with the same woman. Oh, wow. So, I mean, imagine when12:17 that bomb dropped. Yeah.12:19 Stats on that.12:19 They they actually talk about the day the bomb dropped.12:22 Mhmm.12:23 But imagine in that scenario, you know, she's just reeling through through 25 years of memories. Was this a lie? Was that a lie? Was that a lie? What about this? So there's a lot12:35 of, there's a lot of damage control there, especially with her as we're we're trying to sort of bring her up to speed, with what he's known for a long time and, you know, give12:46 her a chance to heal, you know, just love on her really well and really teach him how to love her like he's never loved her before. And I would say for this couple in particular that we have in12:58 mind, he did. Boy, he learned to serve her and love her like Jesus. And, you know, he would have said 25 years prior, he was still doing that. But now on this side of things,13:10 he said he'd say, boy, I was missing a lot.13:12 He got rebaptized. Oh, yeah. Renewed their vows.13:16 Yes. Yes. That's that's amazing. He's Yeah. Yeah. What what a great story.13:22 What would you guys say to a couple you're working with or someone who's listening if they say I'm having a longing for someone else, someone besides my spouse? What would you say the 1st thing is that they should13:34 do?13:35 Well, because I'm a guy and I can just be to the point sometimes, the 1st thing I would actually say to them is take out a shotgun and blow off your left foot as that'll be an easier recovery. Oh, gosh. Yeah. That13:47 that being said that being said and off the table, what I really would want to do, and Tammy and I spend a lot of time with couples doing exactly this, is we point them back to God's blueprint for13:58 marriage. God had a purpose, and God had a design for marriage. It wasn't by accident. You know, so many times in our culture, we act like this is just a a civil construct. You know, it's a it's a way toEmotional vs Physical Affairs and Brain Bonds 14:10 manage having kids together and to you know, we're gonna promise to be together and sign the the papers, but it's a covenant with God. God had a purpose. God had an intention. So we love to take them back14:22 to that. And when we take them back to that, it starts to reframe everything, they thought was true or or didn't know was true. It really starts to sort of, push back against the lies that14:34 they've let themselves. And by the way, you guys know this. The lies that we tell ourselves Yeah. Those are the worst lies. Those are the those are the really pernicious lies that tear us up because we're telling14:43 ourselves those every day. So that would be the 1st thing I would want to do is point them back to God's blueprint. And, yeah, by the way, that's why we only work with Christian couples because they're the only ones that14:53 would understand that.14:54 Yeah. Right. Right. Sense. I mean, especially around even relating to the the opposite sex. Because 1 of the things I'd like you to to really talk about15:06 is, you know, my mind, it's easy to say, okay. In a physical affairs, this. I mean, it it can be very clear. It seems like an emotional affair. Boy, that that's that's subjective. There15:18 there's so much to that. Like, how do you help someone to really understand Mhmm. Maybe when they've crossed that line from relating to the opposite sex into more of an, an emotional affair.15:30 Actually, we we work with couples all the time. But currently, we have a couple, where he is claiming his his relationship was only emotional. And so it started, you know,15:42 just conversation. It was a neighbor. A conversation, let's go walking together. Let's, you know, meet after hours, talk. And what the void in him was15:54 is that, they had some challenges at home with their kids' high school and 1 was an adult and the rebellion of the kids.16:07 And so it was really taken a toll in their marriage, and they were divided in the parenting. And he started to kind of find things to do that helped him feel happier. He was working out. What did being like16:18 Some coping by kinda just pouring into himself, and he found someone that had that in common. And his wife did not want to participate in those things with him. And then so he kinda gave himself permission16:31 to say, well, she didn't, you know, and so this is what I started doing.16:35 This is16:35 how this happened. And so, typically, what we will do, we will say, if someone is thinking on their own and their spouse doesn't know, it's like, why don't you give yourself 6 months of16:47 pouring into just you spiritually, relationally, ask your spouse if they would go to therapy with you or get, you know, a mentor at church or, you know, professional coaching or something.16:59 Another trusted married couple as a mentor. Something, someone to help walk alongside you for about 6 months. And then let's see where you're17:10 at.17:11 Yeah. So let's say that that a couple doesn't even agree on maybe the definition. 1 thinks this was an emotional affair. The other's going, that wasn't at all. It was just relating to this17:23 person. How do you help them even around that where they don't agree on if it was an emotional affair or not?17:31 I would say for men, while it does start out typically as a physical affair, you know, you guys know enough about brain science, the chemicals that are firing off during the course of sexual intimacy, that it17:43 becomes an emotional affair. Yeah. Dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, those things are designed by the creator to tie us together. And so it does become emotional at some point.17:55 And the the interesting thing is for most men, I don't think they realize that. They they sort of want to keep that compartmentalized. So it really is, bringing some of those elements in. Another,18:07 way that we do that practically is we'll talk to them about how God intended for those chemicals to bond a husband and a wife together in unity Yeah. And how used for other purposes,18:19 porn or infidelity, it can really take on a whole another meaning and a whole another direction. Makes sense. God intended those things for good, and that's what we try to direct them back to. And then they see it. Yeah.18:31 That's good.18:31 Also, what I would add is that, yes, it some men, it starts out physical or it could be they they go to a massage parlor. They go to, you know,18:43 whatever, a strip club or something. It starts18:45 And all the guys are doing it.18:47 Like, yeah, online, whatever whatever how it starts. But what Brad was talking about becomes emotional at some point is they return again and again and and and again. And it isn't just18:59 the physical part of it. There's just such a void in couples today. We're all so distracted. Yeah. And, we're also lonely because of social media and just our19:11 phones in general that we just don't connect and we don't realize what a void there is.19:17 Not a test question. Do you guys know the word propinquity?19:20 I don't think I've I've heard that word, but I couldn't tell you what it means.19:24 It was the word of the day for me yesterday.19:27 So Yes. Yes.19:28 Yes. Yes. Starting yesterday, yes.19:31 So propinquity is really this idea, very helpful in this context that says, the more time that we spend with another person, the more we'll find things in common and things that we we19:43 share. And so, you know, the problem is if I'm spending time with another woman at the office, it's a matter of time before we start to find things that connect us. Mhmm. If Tammy's spending time with another19:55 man, even at church or something else, you know, there's it's a matter of time before they find things in common, and we have to protect ourselves from this.20:02 That's good.20:03 What boundaries do you guys encourage couples and individuals to have? Because, of course, you know, if they're connecting with someone and then they're finding there's more in common, what boundaries do20:15 they put in place? Ideally, and this isn't always gonna work20:19 out for couples, but we encourage couples when it comes to church, serve together. When it comes to working out, finding a way to work out together or work out with a a male or female partner, which is the same sex.20:32 And I think that's so important setting those boundaries of, you know, I'm I'm not going to connect or have side conversations with anybody unless my spouse is there. And if you are20:44 gonna do things, out on your own, you know, outside of, home, make sure that you have someone that's holding you accountable, that you go to that asks you20:56 hard questions. Brad and I are big fan fans of mentor couples and mentors in your life. So someone that's gonna be asking you, hey. How you doing in your marriage? Oh, I just feel like I can't do anything right.Boundaries, God's Design, and Spousal Influence 21:08 Well, let's check-in. Where do you feel like you're doing things right? Is someone telling you that you're doing things right other than your spouse? Asking hard questions. That's a great boundary to have,21:20 so you have a limit line of where where, you know, you are stepping over that line.21:25 Here's a great example of what Tammy was just saying, because she's a lot smarter than I look, by the way. A great example is we were we were youth pastors, and we were, you know, as youth pastors in the church,21:37 we're kinda wrestling with some of those same boundaries. And so like so many other youth ministries, we had a 15 passenger van, and, you know, we're picking up kids and dropping them off and doing all of the things. And21:48 it would because it was, it made the most practical sense to drop off a couple of girls at the end of the night because they were closest to our home. Tammy said 1 day, hey. What happens if there's a21:59 problem, you know, the sexual related problem with 1 of the girls that you drop off dropped off? And, of course, they said, goodness. I I would never do that. And she said, no. What if 1 of them claim there's a22:11 problem? And, man, it just took my breath away because, it was an area where in my own confidence, I had sort of let my guard down. And, you know, if there was even a claim that22:23 something had had happened by the youth pastor to a high school girl, we would have been done. All of the effectiveness that we had for the kingdom at that point, we would have been done. So back to the boundaries22:34 question, like, for me, that that allowed me to to see 5 steps ahead and say, where could this possibly go? Oh, no. No. No. We don't we don't want that. That's not gonna happen. In22:46 Well What I22:47 love that you're saying is that you accepted Tammy's influence. Because it would have been easy. And I know as as a husband, it's easy for me to then try to argue22:59 against what Erin is sensing, her gut, her concern. That would never happen. That's crazy. No way. Yeah. But there's power in in in really being willing23:11 to lean into our wives that that that gut, that feeling, that that cautiousness Mhmm. To where we just you know, I always tell Erin, you know, I may not always understand or even agree,23:23 but, you know, you guys have been married 41 years. We've been married 34 years. I trusted enough to always want to lean in and accept her influence. And I know that's important23:35 as you guys are working then with couples recovering from an affair. What are what are some of those other important things that you're teaching them? You know, what what does that recovery23:47 kinda look like?23:49 I I love the way you phrase that question and sort of learning to trust each other. Yeah. We talk a lot about how God intended marriage to take 2 individual mes and turn them into a24:00 unified we. And that's a lot of work.24:03 That is.24:04 We have a lifetime to do. A lot24:05 of time. It does.24:06 It takes a lot of time. But, you know, the with the 1 of the ways I like to explain that is, you know, god made Tammy's brain different than mine. That's why I say she's smarter than I look. But, 1 of the ways24:18 that he made her different than me is she you know, most women are able to engage, emotionally. They have a discernment that men don't have. Mhmm. And for a long time, that bothered me. It felt like a24:30 challenge to what I knew on my inside, but there was a point where I said, wait a minute. I don't have that discernment, and I don't always understand it, but it feels like a superpower.24:42 Yeah. It feels like something you know, it's not invisibility, by the way, but, you know, it feels like something where I can take advantage of this superpower that she's got and learn to trust her discernment. And I24:53 would say for me, that's exactly the way that it's worked out. Good. And and I would encourage couples to do the same. You know, there was 1 time when a a high school friend had asked me to get25:05 together. She found some old pictures of us and, just wanna get together and give me copies of the pictures. And, you know, me, do do do do do do. I just thought, no no big deal. That'll be fine. Yeah. And Tammy said, I25:17 don't I don't know. She said, my my radar is going off here. And, you know, just like you said, Greg, my 1st thought was, oh, you know, what do you mean you don't you don't trust me? Because you don't trust me. Yeah. And25:26 then I thought, well, wait a minute. There's that superpower, and I get to choose. Do I listen to it, or do I blow it off? Mhmm. I'm gonna listen to it. That's what you do. Couples the25:38 same thing. We will teach couples the same thing. There is a superpower there. There is a strength in your we. Learn to tap into that with each other and trust each other.25:48 Brad and I will start with with saying, you know, the problems you're having today started before you ever met. And something that Brad and I have, really coined in in our approach25:59 with couples is we'll say, we want to do what we call a university of life and relationships. So what we'll do is we'll say, okay. Each 1 of us are born into this university26:11 called life, and then the professors that teach us everything about relationships are those who raise us, those who have big influences upon us. Yeah. And26:23 so when you start with they let you do this. They usually struggles like, this has nothing to do with the affair. Yeah. Oh, yes. It does. It does. Duh.26:31 Yeah.26:32 And so you discover roots to it. You discover roots. And when they become aware of poor coping, no idea how to,26:44 resolve conflict, you know, just poor communication, never really learned physical affection. Maybe they never even had an intact family. They don't know how to do this. And so26:56 that empowers them to and to say just I know where this comes from, and I need to unlearn it and learn something different, which seems to be a turning point. Even though27:08 they resist us doing this, it's the most impactful point of their journey in recovery.27:14 And foundation offer what27:16 we do.27:17 How would you encourage a couple possibly that may be listening and an affair has just been revealed? They just had revelation day. What what steps do they need to take immediately?27:29 Get professional help. Mhmm. Yeah. 1 of the things Tammy often say is don't make life changing decisions in the middle of a crisis. Good. And that is a crisis. Mhmm. So27:41 getting professional help is somebody who can say, let's slow down. Let's let's walk through this 1 step at a time. We're gonna figure this out together. It's gonna take some time, but we're gonna do it. But you've gotta27:53 get professional help.27:54 I would add something that you don't do, which is go announce it on Facebook, call every family member, call every friend out of revenge,Show more In this video 0:00 The Drift to Infidelity: Causes and Fantasy14:00 Emotional vs Physical Affairs and Brain Bonds21:00 Boundaries, God's Design, and Spousal Influence28:00 Recovery Roadmap and Timeline for Hope34:00 Lasting Transformation and CelebrationCommunicating with Your Kids with Confidence & Joy with Connie Albers Focus On The Family With Jim Daly Nov 4
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