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Apostasy Abounds!
May 7, 2025 · 55 min
Dr. Nathan Jones joins Dr. J.B. Hixson on the Not By Works Podcast to discuss the growing state of apostasy in the modern Church.
Series Christ in Prophecy
Lamb & Lion Ministries exists to proclaim the Good News and hope-filled message of the soon return of Jesus Christ.
May 7, 2025 · 55 min · Christ in Prophecy
Dr. Nathan Jones joins Dr. J.B. Hixson on the Not By Works Podcast to discuss the growing state of apostasy in the modern Church. ...more Show the full description Show less Dr. Nathan Jones joins Dr. J.B. Hixson on the Not By Works Podcast to discuss the growing state of apostasy in the modern Church.
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0:11 Welcome to the NBW Ministries podcast, advancing the clear, accurate, and urgent gospel message. Your host, Doctor. J. B. Hickson, is an author and pastor who provides commentary0:23 and insights on current events through the lens of scripture. Doctor. Hixson interacts with various experts on cultural, theological and political issues while proclaiming God's word to a world in0:35 desperate need of the truth. If you enjoy today's podcast, be sure to forward it to others. And now here's your host, JB Hixson.0:48 Greetings, everyone. This is JB coming to you from my studio beneath the sky nestled neatly in the tall timbers of colorful Colorado. Thanks so much for joining us today for the program. Thanks for starting your day with0:58 us. We appreciate it very much. It is Thursday, May first 20 25, start of a new month. It's amazing how fast 20 25 is flying by, and we're1:10 kicking off the month with doctor Nathan Jones from Lamb and Lion Ministries. He'll be our guest joining us here in just a moment. We're gonna talk about apostasy. You know, we've talked a lot about that so far this year1:20 with the release of my book on the great last days apostasy, but, no shortage of topics there. No shortage of details related to this gathering apostasy that is so prevalent everywhere1:32 we look. And I can't wait to get Doctor. Jones' perspective on some of the things that we are seeing as a sign of the times, of course, the great last days apostasy. Before we get to that, I want to mention a couple of1:44 announcements. Of course, you can see I'm flying solo today. Our my sometimes cohost, Morgan, my son, who is our production manager. He is not, on the program today, but he'll be joining us 2 or 3 times a week going
1:55 forward. And I always enjoy talking with him. I know you're getting to know him a little bit too as we, post these, podcasts, but, send him a note of encouragement if you can sometime. I know he'd love to hear from you.
2:06 But, flying solo today. And so let me mention a couple of things. First of all, with the new month means new travel ministry. So we're gonna be hitting the road in a couple of weeks and headed to Tulsa for the Mid
2:18 America prophecy conference. It's an annual event. I think this is my ninth or tenth time in a row to speak there, something like that. But, pleased to share the platform at this conference with doctor Tommy
2:29 Ice, Paul Wilkinson, Philip Goodman, Joe Martin. Just gonna be a great, 2 day event. So if you're anywhere near Tulsa coming up in May, I'd love to have you come out and join us. All the details
2:41 are listed under the events page of not by works dot org and, of course, on the MBW ministries app. Also, with a new month comes a new premier
2:53 Zoom guest. We'll have more to say about that as the month moves forward. But for our premier subscribers, mark your calendars for Thursday, May 20 ninth at 5 30 PM mountain time for
3:05 a 90 minute live q and a with Matt De La Madrid, 1 of our favorite guests here on the program. He's gonna give up his time graciously to us to ask him questions. Encourage you to check out
3:17 the book, the great last days apostasy, dot org is where you can go, and you can send that link to others. And, of course, the gospel is proclaimed loudly and clearly throughout the book as we talk about the
3:29 contrast between the apostate church and the remnant, but the great last days apostasy, how the American church is falling away. That's my newest book. Again, the the URL is the great last days
3:40 apostasy dot org. Alright. Lots more we could say. Encourage you to sign up for the newsletter, to check out the prayer board on our app and website, so many other things going on. Lots
3:52 of great, ministry taking place behind the scenes. We're so grateful for your partnership in that. As I often say, we have 1 of the greatest audiences in the world. You guys mean the world to
4:04 me. Appreciate all the encouraging notes and emails that we get, and just thanks for helping us advance the grace message. Alright. Before we bring on our guest today, doctor Nathan Jones, our verse for the day is right
4:15 on point. Second Timothy chapter 4 verses 3 and 4. This is the last letter that Paul wrote, with a possible exception of Hebrews, if you believe he wrote Hebrews, which I tend to believe that he did, but we
4:27 really don't know for sure. But as far as what we know for sure, this would be his final letter before he was martyred. Second Timothy, you know, he wrote his second letter to his young son in the
4:39 faith, Timothy. Lots of rich doctrine and details in that letter. But we zoom in here to chapter 4 verses 3 and 4, where Paul says, for the time will come when they will not endure sound
4:50 doctrine. But according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers. And listen to this. And they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to
5:02 fables. That idea of being turned aside is very similar contextually to falling away or departing or drifting away or turning away. And we compare that
5:14 to first Timothy 4 1, where Paul writes that the spirit expressly says in the latter times, some will depart from the faith, fall away from the faith. Same idea here. He says they're gonna give heed to
5:26 deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Well, that's parallel to fables and turning their ears away from the truth. Folks, we live in an age of deception and an age of apostasy.
5:38 And I'm so urgently really imploring you to be careful as believers, have discernment. First John 4 1, you know, test the spirits, because you do not wanna be
5:49 swept up in this tide of apostasy where before you realize that you're following fables and doctrines of demons. It is possible for believers to be led astray. If you don't stay in the Word
6:01 and stay fellowshipping with godly Bible based churches and other believers, if you're not rooted and well grounded in the faith, you can be swept up and become a casualty of the faith.
6:13 Thankfully, our eternal destiny is not dependent upon how we finish or how much we hang on to the Lord. We don't have to hang on to Lord. He's hanging on to us by God's grace, and we're thankful for that. We are we are
6:24 in Christ if you know the Lord Jesus. You are born again. Your spiritual identity is new. You are identified with Christ. You're a child of the King. But you don't want to be 1 of those who at
6:36 the rapture is found drifting away from the Lord. You want to be remaining steadfast and firm and not being caught up in this apostasy. We're going be talking today with Doctor. Nathan Jones
6:48 about how apostasy abounds. And with that word of caution and encouragement to you, let's bring on our guest for today's program. Well, Jones, thanks so much for joining
7:00 us again for the program.
7:02 It's excellent to always be here with you, JB. I learned so much.
7:05 Well, we have a great, friendship and we have had the privilege to collaborate, quite often in various settings. We've, of course, been in the studio there at Lamb and Lion. We've shared the platform at a number of
7:17 conferences, including just recently, we were honored to have you and doctor Reagan with us at the North Georgia Prophecy Conference, and that was great to great to see you in fellowship with you. And, so we're looking
7:28 forward to the discussion today, and we're gonna kinda do something a little different because, you are sort of a a a theologian par excellence. You you and I, love to talk about the the things of the Lord and
7:40 doctrine and theology. And, you know, you've got my book and you're working your way through it. And you said, hey. Can I just can I kinda take the lead and and interview you and ask you some questions about the new
7:52 book? So under the broad heading of apostasy, we're gonna 0 in, and I'm gonna yield the mic to you, and we're gonna talk about the book.
8:00 Thanks, JB. This is I always love it when I have 1 of your books. Thank you very much. I'm sure that we'll eventually have you on Christ in Prophecy. But once I got it, you know, unfortunately I haven't been able to dive
8:11 into it, but to get the author and have this opportunity, folks, was like, JB, I want to put you on the hot seat. That's what we call it at Lamb and Lion Ministries. When we take 1 of our own evangelists who've written a
8:21 book and put them in the chair, and then we kind of grill them a little bit. And so I wanna grill JB on his latest book, the great last days apostasy, how the American church is falling away.
8:32 Well, just remember, I have a weak heart, so be gentle. Alright.
8:38 Folks, let me read the back cover just to give you a summary of what our topic is going to be today. It's something has gone terribly wrong in the American church, and few people are talking about it. Boy, is that so
8:48 true? Worldly ideologies have obscured biblical truth. Feel good messages have replaced sound doctrine, and the faith of many is crumbling under deception. The Bible warns of a great
8:59 apostasy as this present age draws to a close. The closer we get to the Lord's return, the further the church is falling away from him. The great last days apostasy exposes the
9:11 evidence of this alarming departure. Will the remnant arise and be found without spot and blameless at our Lord Jesus Christ appearing? First Timothy 6 14. JB, I was excited when I got this because 1 of
9:23 the main signs of the end times that the Lord gives us is apostasy. And for those who don't sure what apostasy is, could you please give us a theological definition or a working man's
9:34 definition of what exactly apostasy is?
9:37 Yeah, absolutely. You know, that 1 of the key verses that we come back to again and again in the book is First Timothy 4: 1, which says, in the latter days, some will depart
9:49 from the faith or the spirit expressly says that in the last days, some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. That's just 1 of many verses that indicate that in the last of
10:01 the last days, the closer we get to the return of the Lord, there will be an apostate form of the church, people that drift away from the Lord. Now, most of us when we hear that term in common sort of
10:12 evangelical church culture, we think of unbelievers who are hellbound that are not truly Christians, you know, owing to some of the influence of Roman Catholicism and their notion
10:23 of mortal and venial sins and those kinds of things, think apostate means oh, you're hellbound. And that's certainly true. The church is filled these days with people that don't know Jesus. They've never been saved by
10:34 grace through faith. And some of them are swept up in a tide of apostasy. Some of them are intentionally false teachers, you know, worming their way into the church for other reasons of power and and
10:46 and other motivations, selfish motivations. But what we talk about in the opening chapter there in defining our terms is that there's also a sense in which, and the Bible is quite clear on this, that even believers
10:58 can fall away. Now that doesn't mean they lose their salvation. It just means that they they their faith has grown stale. They're not vibrant in their relationship with the Lord. They they may know the Lord,
11:10 but they're they're drifting away from him. And we get into several examples biblically there, Hymenaeus, Alexander, Philetus. We talk about how Paul specifically says in 2 Timothy 2 12,
11:22 that even if we stop believing, God is faithful because he can't deny himself. So certainly there are any number of reasons that believers might drift away or fall away apostasy
11:34 from the Lord. That's not ever good. And God's discipline will surely follow, Hebrews 12 tells us that. But so yeah, you have to differentiate, you know,
11:46 what we're talking about here. And in the book, we always try to make it clear throughout whether we're talking about the unbelieving apostate versus just more of a challenge or an exhortation to the church
11:58 as a whole, to make sure if you know the Lord Jesus, that you're part of the the remnant that is faithful until the end, like like you read from the back of the book, that you want to be found blameless and spotless and
12:09 not be caught up in a tide of apostasy.
12:12 Well, that's encouraging. I have, both my sister and sister-in-law have had some rough circumstances in her life, and their love for the Lord has just grown cold. And when I read through the 7 churches of Revelation,
12:23 that gives me comfort for the fact that they are the churches. They're still in the Lord's hands. He calls them the 7 lampstands, and he's holding the 7 stars. And 1 of them is considered the apostate church. And the
12:33 last 1, the church of Laodicea, the lukewarm church. And so that's how you would say apostasy. Does that mean then if someone becomes apostate, that they were never saved to begin with?
12:43 Well, certainly, you know, Calvinist leaning teachers would try to suggest that. But again, you know, my passion here at NBW and for all of my life, by the way, this
12:54 is the fortieth anniversary of my license to ministry and that's I talk about that in the book. It's 1 of the reasons I felt led to write the book. Dedicated it to my home church pastor who licensed me to the ministry in
13:05 June of 19 85, 40 years Vance Havner? No, Vance Havner is a famous last century Southern Baptist preacher. You're not that old. Yeah, no,
13:17 not that old.
13:19 Yeah. Billy Crosby, I'm sorry.
13:21 Yeah, brother Billy J. Crosby, I still have his certificate of license hanging on my wall. He'll be 92 this year.
13:27 Sent a
13:28 copy of the book, but, yeah, 40 years ago this June. So that's interesting because,
13:33 20 years ago last week I was ordained. About You got 40. So we both came up on our anniversary.
13:40 Yeah, for sure. No. And the people are probably going, but JB, you look so much younger than Nathan. That's the deal. Yeah. You know, no, I've just given But yeah, back to your question at you
13:52 know, at its core, we really believe that in the clarity, accuracy, and urgency of the gospel, salvation is a free gift. We can't do anything to earn it. We don't have to do anything to keep it, and we can't do anything
14:01 to prove it. So while it is certainly true that every believer should walk by faith and not by sight, live out the fruit of the spirit and and recognize their identity in Christ and live like it and persevere to
14:13 the end, that's the normal healthy thing for believers to do. The reality is some Christians don't. And thankfully, God's grace is sufficient even if we are shipwrecked in the faith as Paul
14:25 describes and as I talk about in the book, God's faithful. But really the the the so so the answer the short answer is no. It doesn't necessarily mean you were never saved to begin with. A person who thinks they're a
14:36 believer, you know, might not be if if they think they're a believer because they walked an aisle or raised a hand or made some kind of a commitment or made a contract with God. You know, a lot of times people will say,
14:48 Lord, I'll stop, you know, doing this. I'll stop drinking in my profligate life if you'll just do this. And somehow they think that entrance into heaven is sort of a quid pro quo. Well, if that's what you think, then
14:59 you're not a believer. Faith alone in Christ alone is the only means of receiving eternal life. But yeah, the book really is in not only is it an expose
15:10 demonstrating the sign of the times that this is meant this falling away means we're getting closer to the return of the Lord. But it's also a clarion call to the church and individual
15:21 believers to to examine their relationship with the Lord and make sure they're really walking with him because you want to be found faithful when he returns.
15:30 Yes. Abide in me. You know, I grew up always with the teachings of eternal security and various denominations. And so it rather surprised me when I joined Lamb and Lion Ministries. How many Christians wrote me vehemently
15:42 against once saved, always saved? And I've gone through seminary and never had so much vehemence that people are quite upset that I think John 10 makes the argument that Jesus
15:54 calls them his sheep and nothing can pull them out of their hands. And so even if they fall into apostasy or they fall into error, You know, if they're still the lord's sheep, he still got them in their hands. It doesn't
16:04 mean that, you know, every time we make a thought, you know, if you take lordship salvation to the extreme, you know, where every thought betrays us and we lose our salvation off and on every other minute. You That's
16:14 obviously not what John MacArthur was teaching, but that seems to be what a lot of Christians have adopted. And it leads to a very, I think, unhealthy faith because they spend a lot of their time fearful that they're not
16:24 abiding enough. And so I'm very encouraged to hear you say that.
16:28 Next question. Let me interject because this is a great this is a very important issue and you know me, I love talking about grace. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's a group that would say emphatically, you've got to
16:39 do good works to become saved. That's sort of in theological terms, the Armenian view. Then there's another view that would say, well, you got to do good works or you never were saved, right? And so it proves that you
16:49 weren't saved. But either way, you sort of make works the determinative factor and someone and you're right, we get the same emails, this vehemence. When people respond that way, to me, it's an
17:01 indication that they really don't understand grace. They somehow think that our performance, our behavior plays some role, some to a greater degree, some to a lesser degree. But we
17:12 teach that it's not by works. That's the name of our ministry. So works do not play a role in our eternal destiny, they play a role in our sanctification. But yeah,
17:24 that's a good thing to clarify.
17:27 I love that because you separate justification, which is coming to salvation, then the works play in as your sanctification throughout your life process as you become more Christ like. But you'll never truly be free of
17:38 sin into glorification when you are resurrected and get your eternal bodies. Now you bring what is the church in chapter 2, and so we throw that word around a lot as Christians. And
17:50 of course, you come from the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox background, you're going to define it differently. So going forward, when we say the church, JB, what are we talking about here? What is the church?
18:00 Yeah, that's a great question. You have to understand the standard books in order to be able to tell how far we've drifted from what we're supposed to be. So yeah, there are a lot of misconceptions out there. As you
18:11 alluded to, a lot of people when they hear the term church, they think the papacy, the Roman Catholic church, so forth. I had a friend in high school that that he was Catholic and and he he came to know the Lord, I
18:20 believe, but, you know, when I would invite him to my church, it's, hey, you wanna come to church? You wanna come to our youth church? You know? He'd be like, what? What do you mean that the church is you know? So people
18:30 you have to define terms. So the church, according to scripture, is anyone who's placed his or her faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from Pentecost to the rapture, the present church age, the people that are
18:41 defined as the New Testament says, as in Christ, a unique blessing of the present church age. Old Testament believers were not in Christ. That's a unique blessing. Doesn't mean they weren't believers. They're not part of
18:53 the big picture family of God, but we serve a unique purpose. And so in that chapter, I I talk about the purpose of the church, and I contrast that with the purpose of Israel. I show you how God is
19:04 using the church today in unique ways and how he's using Israel. But, yeah, it's any person who's saved by grace through faith from the time of Pentecost in Acts 2 until the Lord comes back.
19:15 Hence, the rapture is the rapture of the church. Every believer from Pentecost till that moment. Even if you're saved 3 seconds before the rapture, you're still part of the church. Let's circle back to what you said
19:26 there because you said there's a purpose for the church and there's a a purpose for how God's using Israel. Some people confuse the 2, and they say the church has replaced Israel. But I think, and I believe you agree
19:37 here, distinctly see differences in God's purposes for both the church and Israel. Briefly, could you tell us what they are?
19:44 Yeah. So we have a lot of charts and diagrams in the book, which I think are helpful. And so in that chapter, after describing how God is using Israel and then how God is using the church, I summarize it in a a short
19:55 little 5 point graphic. But let me start with Israel. I think there are at least 5 ways that I identify in scripture that God is using Israel. First of all, to witness to the unity of
20:07 Yahweh in universal idolatry and paganism. You know, Deuteronomy 6 4, the Shema, hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is 1. At a time and the same thing is true today, but back in the ancient Near East, there was a time when
20:18 all these pagan gods and plurality of gods, and they had, you know, the Roman gods and the Greek gods and so on and so forth. God is 1. He is the 1 true creator of the universe. God
20:30 eternally exists in 3 persons, father, son, and holy spirit. And God used Israel and will use Israel ultimately in the kingdom to testify to that fact. He's also using Israel as an example
20:42 of what it the blessings of serving God if you're if you're faithful. You know, the Deuteronomy 28 to 30, the blessings and cursings so that other pagan nations will say, hey, we want that those blessings.
20:54 God used Israel to record and give us God's revelation. All the writers of scripture with the possible exception of Luke were Jewish people. So we know about God and His self
21:05 revelation through the Jewish people. Obviously to produce a savior, I mean Jesus Himself is the ultimate seed of Abraham and a Jew. And finally, He's using Israel to be center stage during the future
21:17 global kingdom. He's using the church
21:20 go ahead. Page 37, if anyone wants to refer to it.
21:24 Yeah. And so he's also using the church today in a very unique way as I think a foreshadowing of the glory to come, a foretaste of the glory to come. He's using it is the church to get
21:36 Israel's attention, Romans 11 11, so that even though we don't have the full blessings of the new covenant the way they're described in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36, for example, we we
21:48 have a foretaste of that. We have the indwelling spirit. We have unmitigated access, to God, and we can boldly approach the throne room. The the Lord is using the church today to showcase the exceeding riches of his
22:00 grace and mercy. Not that God's grace is new today. Certainly God's grace is an eternal attribute. He's not more gracious now than he was before, and he'll never be more gracious now than he is now. But he is gracious.
22:12 But at Calvary, we see in full high definition living color, the incredible grace that was only, you know, touched upon and and seen, you know,
22:24 in shadows through the sacrificial system and things like that. The church God's using the church to call out a people for his name, Acts 15 14. That's why we're called Christians. He's using
22:36 I love this 1. He's using the church to showcase God's wisdom to Satan, Ephesians 3 10. I mean, wow, which really ought to motivate us by the way, because when we are doing what we're supposed to be
22:47 doing, and we're not part of the apostate group, then it's sort of an in your face to Satan. But conversely, when the church drifts away from the Lord and becomes worldly, Satan just sits back
22:59 and and points and says, see, you know, and and and he so it's just we wanna we wanna end your face to Satan. And then finally, I think the Lord's using the church today to prepare a body that's going to help rule, and
23:11 you've talked about this in your new book in the coming millennial kingdom.
23:15 Got a copy. Just got my copy this week from Harvest House Publishers, a little bright there. But yeah, look at that.
23:21 It's all shiny. So it's now it's available on Amazon. I know we did the pre order, but is it? Pre order until June third. They're trying to get 2500
23:31 pre orders, which makes the book go viral in the secular book lists and gets the message of Christ's kingdom coming out into the general public and not just the Christian bookstore. It's still on
23:43 pre order for quite a while, but I'm excited about it, man. But we're talking about your book here. Let's go back to
23:48 I know, but let me put in a plug. We got to make sure folks, because we have 10000 people a day that watch our program. Get go to Amazon, the Messianic, what is it called?
23:59 Millennial, the coming millennial
24:01 kingdom. Coming millennial kingdom. We've had you on to talk about it before, and we'll link up to it again today, but go there and pre order it. We want to get that message out to as many people as possible. All right.
24:11 I'm This is an important message too. Growing up, we heard about the different worldviews. Obviously, there's a secular worldview that doesn't have God in it. There's a religious worldview that could cover any type of
24:23 religion. There's a Christian worldview. And in the last few years, I've actually started adopting that there's a difference between a Christian worldview and a biblical worldview. And so this is what your book, I think,
24:34 is primarily addressing here is how as Christianity's worldview gets messed up or intertwined into the secular worldview or the religious worldview or sometimes even just that Laodicean Christian worldview
24:46 that the church is falling away. What are some of the things that are dragging Christians and churches over and maybe even hold denominations away from having a biblical worldview?
24:57 Yeah. By the way, I completely agree. There's a huge difference between a Christian worldview and a biblical worldview to people overseas. Anyone in the West is considered a Christian worldview, right? But
25:09 that's not at all what we mean. The biblical worldview means that you run everything through the grid of Scripture as the only standard for your beliefs, attitudes and practices. And so, yeah, I think this is 1 of the
25:20 first real major manifestations from which all other manifestations of apostasy emanate, and that is a departure from the Bible. And so in that chapter, I talk about sort of how we got here,
25:33 postmodernism and historical perspective. And I realize that many scholars today would say, you know, we're no longer postmodern, we're post truth or post Christian. And I sort of get that, but really,
25:45 the way I see it, post truth, post Christian are just sort of manifestations or the result of a fundamental postmodern mindset. So I have some really
25:57 interesting charts in this chapter that sort of talk about the distinction between the the pre modern, the modern, the postmodern era. I talk about why do you believe what you believe, but the short answer is the church
26:08 has become a victim of worldly thinking. It's right out of Colossians 2, where Paul says, See to it that nobody takes you hold on, I'm calling
26:20 it up here. He says, See to it that no 1 treats you through philosophy and empty deceit. Philosophy, there's the only time that word is used in the Bible that means
26:32 love of wisdom, meaning worldly wisdom, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of this world, and not according to Christ. So whenever we elevate anything above scripture
26:44 and use it as our standard, we have become we we're falling away from the Lord.
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27:50 It's fascinating to watch now that I'm half a century. I can look back and see how the church would keep stepping back more and more first, you know, allowing divorce in
28:02 the church, and then homosexuality in the church, and then gay marriage in the church, and it just kept stepping back. Now there's Christians for abortion. And it just seems to keep stepping back more and more
28:14 because their worldview is becoming more secular and not more biblical. Another sign that the church has fallen away, and we've seen this in our lifetimes too, is there was a passion, especially with Hal Lindsey's Late
28:26 Great Planet Earth and the whole Jesus movement for Bible prophecy. I grew up in churches no matter what the denomination that love Bible prophecy. But I would say in the last 15, 20 years, especially since the
28:37 seeker sensitive movement came in and Bible prophecy got kicked out that in chapter 4, you talked we're falling away eschatologically. What does that mean to fall away eschatologically?
28:49 Yeah. You know, that's a subject that's near and dear to our hearts, obviously, you and I, and our, you know, ministries. So everything emanates from the Bible. Once you've departed from the Bible and started to
28:59 mishandle the Bible or marginalize the Bible or ignore the Bible, then it affects every area of theology. And so I deal with this as a manifestation of how the church is falling away in 2 senses. On the 1 hand,
29:12 you've got a a resurgence of interest in false eschatological views, and many of the people that are espousing them, we would consider brothers and sisters in
29:24 Christ. We're not questioning their salvation. We just have an honest disagreement. So this would be an example of someone who I believe is falling away in a certain area, but it doesn't mean they're not a believer. But
29:35 and I try to say this delicately, because I don't want to claim that, you know, any anybody who holds to Preterism or Pre wrath or Replacement Theology is somehow apostate. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just
29:46 suggesting that the resurgence and upsurge in interest in those views, apart from what we believe is the pretty clear straightforward teaching of
29:57 Scripture, is a sign of the times. Let's put it that way. But I also address in that book the sort of the other side of that, which is just the shysters, the crazies, the ones that
30:09 are just coming up with all kinds of sensationalistic viewpoints. And many of them we don't really know if they're believers or they don't give any indication of it. They're just in it for the money or the power or the
30:19 fame. So all of that taken together to me is an indication. To say it another way, to put it in reverse, the number of good, solid
30:30 dispensational, pre tribulational, pre millennial folks is becoming more and more of a remnant, even while there is an awakening in some areas than in times past, and
30:42 that's a sign of the times.
30:44 Now there's quite a number of ways you've listed here that people can fall away eschatologically. Mishandling prophetic passages allegorizing or spiritualizing prophetic passages,
30:56 confusing prophetic passages, we all get a little confused over prophecy now and then, or just flat out ignoring them. Mean, overlooking them, misunderstanding, that's common in Bible prophecy. But the
31:08 blatant misapplying, neglecting, and even abusing, I can see why a lot of churches are a little hesitant to bring in prophecy teachers like you and me and other ministries because we've seen such
31:19 an abuse of Bible prophecy. You know, we don't see such an abuse of family counseling or the other things that churches deal with, but it must be very hard for a pastor who has no Bible prophecy or real study other than
31:31 a few 101 courses to want to teach Bible prophecy when you guys got got guys like Harold Camping out there and you know, blood moons and and you know, lost pyramids and all all sorts
31:43 of stuff that just kind of pulls people away from the biblical teaching of prophecy. So, I'm so glad and and I I love you put that like up near the top too. You know, right off the bat, you're talking about eschatology.
31:54 Do you see that Bible prophecy is important to keeping people away from falling into apostasy?
32:01 Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, I was just talking with someone who was sharing their testimony, talked about how when they got saved by God's providence,
32:13 they didn't have anybody to disciple them right away. They just they started with the back of the book. They started with Revelation. And but you can't understand Revelation unless you understand the beginning. And so
32:23 you can't understand God's God's plan of the ages without understanding bible prophecy. And, you know, the reason you you you pointed out something that very few so far as I've talked about this book in the few months
32:34 since it's been out 2 or 3 months has has touched on, but you're exactly right. And that is I was intentional in putting this manifestation in my book as number 2, because we
32:46 know from Peter that scoffers, mockers, people that are gonna literally make fun of and deride the teaching about Christ's return are going to increase the
32:58 closer we get to the Lord's return. And so
33:00 Yeah, they're part of that sign of apostasy in the end times. They'll deny the creation, they'll deny the flood, and they'll deny the second coming of Jesus Christ. I think we're basically saying evolution or secular
33:11 societies. The nones that are not nones as in Catholic nones, but this growing group that just doesn't have any religious or Christian even worldview system.
33:22 Yeah. It's really quite ironic that the the enemies of eschatology today are actually fulfilling eschatology, you know, by by their attacks, you
33:34 know.
33:34 I was debating an atheist on his podcast twice, I brought that up, and he didn't know how to say it. I was like, man, I said, you're in the Bible. Said, do you mean? I said, right here in Peter. He's like, look at it,
33:45 you're scoffering. They said you guys would increase in frequency and intensity, and that's what's happening. Well, now, this is, I think, what I think apostasy, I think your chapter 5 here, falling away morally.
33:57 How does 1 fall away morally and still call themselves a Christian? Because that brings up that debate again, that once saved always saved. If a Christian is living in an apostate life or an immoral life, then how can
34:08 they be saved? How do you justify that biblically?
34:11 So a couple of things. And I know you just got the book and you're still kind of working through it, you have to finish another book first. But in that chapter, you got to
34:23 differentiate between individual moral apostasy and the church as a whole. And so first of all, yes, it is possible for an individual believer to
34:34 fall into gross sin. There's no sin that an unbeliever can commit that a believer might not also commit if he or she is walking in the flesh. It's not like somehow God's okay with ourShow more
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