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Growing a Ministry: Overcoming Challenges with Authentic Leadership EP16
March 27, 2025 · 36 min
Pastor Jeff and Pastor Doug discuss their experiences with church planting and ministry challenges.
Series The BRAVE Way Podcast March 27, 2025 · 36 min · The BRAVE Way Podcast
Pastor Jeff and Pastor Doug discuss their experiences with church planting and ministry challenges. ...more Show the full description Show less Pastor Jeff and Pastor Doug discuss their experiences with church planting and ministry challenges.
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Pastor Jeff Schwarzentraub serves as president of Pastor Jeff Ministries, a national and global ministry designed to equip believers and challenge them to take
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The Journey of Church Planting 0:00 So did you grip anything too long that0:03 you can remember? People are watching. They'd be like, let me tell my story. I think there's several things that we I think there's several things that we I'm not interviewing other staff. I did say it.0:12 Yeah. I think there's several things because, like, there's there's there's a tendency in my my background. I wanna do everything right instead of just let things happen. I think 1 of the lessons I've had to learn over0:23 time is just let's play it out and then let's coach it versus let's preemptively say that's not gonna work. We're not doing that.0:39 Hey, guys. Pastor Jeff here. Welcome to the Brave Way podcast in studio today. Good friend, Doug Long with us. Doug, welcome to the program.0:47 Hey. Really glad to be here. Glad to reconnect with you too.0:50 It's been0:51 a while.0:51 I don't know the last time we saw each other. We were just talking, before we got started here. You were telling me when we met. When was it that we met exactly?0:59 Okay.0:59 So it had to been sometime fall of 2011.1:03 Okay.1:03 Yeah. Church planting, training, you come into the room. I'm like, who is this guy? Yeah.1:07 Because we both planted through Harvest Bible Chapel Yeah. It's true. Out of Chicago. Yeah. So we would have planted, November seventh 20 10. So I do. I remember coming into the training center. So you would have been1:19 in that class. Yep. And Kent probably had me do the, whole relationship training stuff.1:23 Is that1:24 what we thinking about remembering names1:25 Yes. If I remember right. Yeah.1:27 Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. So coming in and doing that, that's when we met. Yep. And then you moved your family, from California to Texas, and you moved to Traverse City after the1:37 So we raised our kids and family in, just north of Houston in The Woodlands, Texas, and we're there 15 years. Went via Chicago, the training, right to Traverse City, Michigan, planted a church there in1:49 2012.1:50 And the weather patterns in Houston,1:52 Texas same.1:53 In Traverse City, Michigan.1:56 Oh, we1:56 didn't tell you about my wife pretty much had a prenup about not living where there's snow.2:00 Well, there's how much and so how much snow do you have on the ground now in2:02 Florida? So it's at the mailbox. Or March. March. Yeah. We gotta dig down not dig down, but it's at mailbox height. Mailbox. Yes. We've had quite a bit of snow.2:11 And then your daughter attends a school in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Talk about this. Just, like, tell me how these engineers great engineering school, Michigan Tech.2:20 Michigan Tech.2:20 Yeah. Talk about how they have designed buildings for students there.2:25 Yeah. So go Huskies, number 1. Number 2, they're smart. But when we went to the orientation to drop her off, the lady leading the orientation2:37 said, if you're a freshman, you should not have a car because it snowed so much 1 night that people were trying to find the roofs of their cars with a broom handle because the snow was, like, 82:49 feet over the last 24 hours or something.2:51 So amazing.2:52 They have doors off of the second story to walk out when the first floor floor. First floor doors don't work because there's so much snow. And right now, legit, it's above the stop3:04 signs. So Yeah. Yeah. You kinda drive through tunnels.3:08 That's amazing.3:08 Yeah. She likes the school, not so much the weather.3:13 Yeah. So Traverse City, Michigan, last time I was in Traverse City3:16 k.3:17 Was about the time I was doing itinerant ministry. I remember I went to a board meeting. It was early July, and, our board ended the that's the best meeting we have. We got a website. We got 2 radio ministries. You3:29 you've wrote written a book. I mean, this is really starting to accelerate. And there was something inside of me I that would just wasn't sitting right. And I kept I was trying to explain to him the whole board meeting,3:38 I don't just wanna travel around and speak anymore. There's something deeper to that. And, so we left the meeting, and all the board was like, that was our best meeting yet. And I went home and told my wife, I'm like,3:49 I'm quitting. I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore. And it was about, it was July July ninth, or July July sixteenth of 2009.3:58 Okay.3:59 And, I I met Kent Shaw, and the rest is history. But for that period, we went to we had to go to a wedding in Traverse City, Michigan. So we're up in Traverse City for that weekend with Kim's4:11 parents. My daughter was 1 year old at the time, 2 years old, I guess. And, it was just the 3 of us. And we got home from that trip. My wife's like, you owe me another vacation because you were so miserable this whole4:21 time. So that was my Traverse City, Michigan experience. We went to the Cherry Festival, I guess, for your National Cherry Festival there and everything. So, apart from that, let's let's skip to okay.4:33 You're a church planter. You planted a church in Traverse City, Michigan. Yeah. Talk about how you got started. Talk about how quickly you planted. Talk about some of the the highs, the lows. Okay. Let's just unpack this4:44 a little bit.4:44 Yeah. So not separate from how you came to here. My connection was Kinshaw. So I've been going up to a conference. I've been pastoring a church, but really, knew that God had more4:57 and was desiring, what really to lead with conviction and, lead according to what God's word says. And some of the questions and you know some of these, I don't even know where5:09 they started, but5:09 Mhmm.5:10 I was asking these, like, what if church was really like what we see in scripture? Can we just do that? Yes.5:15 Right?5:16 What were the things specifically for you that were you were saying, I'm pastoring, but I'm not seeing the church be what?5:22 Yeah.5:22 What was it that drew you to wanna plan?5:25 Well, 1, a sense sense of a community where we would say, okay. So this is Texas, so it was brother brother Doug. Right? And and we didn't do the sister thing quite as much, but it was everyone was brother. And and I'm5:36 like, that's fine, but you're not treating me like a brother.5:39 Got it.5:39 Right? And and so what does it look like?5:41 Authentic community.5:42 Authentic community. And then I was really on a track of, well, growth and learning biblically about what a correct eldership really looks like. Got it. What does a healthy eldership and5:54 plurality look like, as well as a small group, which is the community, part of that.5:59 Yep.6:00 So those were the 2 things. I was in a church that was neither of those. I'm like, god, what if? And, so went up to the conference, connected with Kent, and I think this6:12 was in 2006, actually. And he, in Kent Shaw fashion, said, hey. I think in a few years, we might be working together. And so that always stuck in my head. And,6:24 by god's grace, we were able to. So6:26 So in 20 12, you moved to Traverse City. You're not familiar with there. I know you'd taken some trips up and back, but you had never lived there before. No.6:34 I never How long were6:35 you there before the church got started? How did you make it happen? What what'd you do?6:39 Okay. So we rolled into Chicago for the training in September after after, Labor Day. And 9 times during that fall, I drove up to Traverse City. Literally, a year before, I didn't even know. If you asked me where6:51 Traverse City was, I'd never have heard of it. Right? But, so we roll in on a beautiful sunny September afternoon. The first6:59 And for those that don't know, talk about the Great Lake that it's around, what what Okay.7:02 So Lake Michigan, it's extraordinarily beautiful place. Mhmm. Lot of water. You're within boatable water. Lot of people vacation there in the summer. Vacation homes, ton of lakes, rivers, 5 blue ribbon fishing 57:14 fishing streams close by. Extraordinary place to live.7:18 When are you at Ski Hill? I know you have Ski Hill.7:19 We have Ski Hills around us. So you get downhill, cross country skiing as well, and then the boating game is crazy good.7:25 Yep.7:26 I love the outdoors. So it's really, like, God's grace. You know? So, anyway, so we roll in to Chicago, go through the training, but we're taking weekend trips up to start with the 77:38 people in our core team. And, we finish the training, drive up, buy a house, move in January second 2012, and, our very first7:49 Sunday, April eighth 2012, Easter Sunday.7:53 How much is it?7:55 We had not even quite well, poor team committed starts.7:59 On the on the Easter Sunday.8:00 Oh, Easter Sunday. I think there was 300 people or something like that.8:03 That's amazing.8:04 Yeah. It was awesome. We had almost 40 adults and about 500 kids, it felt like. So, but we we had 40 adults that were like, we're in on this8:16 thing, and that was the committed core that we started with. And, through that, God saw fit to grow us slowly, but in healthy ways.8:24 Yeah. We grew slowly too.8:26 Yeah.8:26 And and for someone like me, I'd done, you know, evangelism ministry. We've we've had this conversation. I've been up in Michigan and preached in different places. But, you know, my my my MO was I was used to watching8:37 people come to Christ every single time I preach, because I was preaching, a message of the gospel and inviting people to respond. So that's what I saw. Mhmm. And so when I would hear pastors talk, like, oh, it's hard.8:49 It's really difficult. I'm like, it's probably just don't know how to preach. I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna kill it when I get out there to Denver. And I had to hear of churches that, you know, grew 2000 in the first year8:58 and all those things. I'm like, that'll be us. You know? Because I know how I am. Yeah. And then we got out here, and and nobody got the message that9:06 I was here.9:07 So it just took longer, but, you know, it's been 1 of those things too. I I think in every season that we've had because we've had the season of 12 people in the living room. We've had the season of, you know, 40 people9:17 kind of an apartment area talking about what could be and and thinking about it. We have, you know, at a hundred, 200 people for a long period of time trying to figure out how to do small groups and what it's gonna look9:27 like and, you know, etcetera as we've gone up the whole time. But because of that, I feel like I'm I'm pretty seasoned in a lot of different areas. They've all been good. Yeah. They've all been special. There's all9:38 uniquenesses and different people that are looking for things. But there's been trials too, obviously. So talk about some of the trials that you faced as a senior pastor. What's been some some has been challenging and9:49 how you've grown from9:51 that. Yeah. So I you mentioned you came in with an expectation.9:55 Mhmm.9:55 And I want I mean, I wanna ask you a question as well about the difference between itinerant and being a pastor that has to bring a fresh sermon every Sunday because there's a little bit of judginess in my background.10:07 It's like, yeah. If I had 10 sermons, I could rock all 10 of them too. And10:10 you should have10:11 a little judginess in that. I do.10:12 Yeah. But, so some of the difficult seasons, I think, you know, you go in with the expectation. 1, it's the, the population density. I I grew up in Southern California, LA10:24 County, and then we moved to Houston in The Woodlands. And it's massive Houston, massive city. Right? And, this is the smallest context, and it's a different if it it's a different game. Yep.10:36 Actually, I see how it's God's grace to me to have seasons now that actually dictate somewhat activities, because I'd just be going all the time all the time. I just love stuff in front of10:48 me and push way too hard and aggressively. Have a little bit of background in construction where and particularly in Houston construction, if you didn't push, you didn't make it. Like, you were you were10:59 managing projects11:00 all the time.11:01 Just push push push as hard as you can, as fast as you can on stuff, and, that's what you did. And so you're bringing that mentality to ministry can really cause some damage sometimes.11:13 And so I think there's a healthy way to push. God's grace to me is rolling me into Traverse City where there's some structure and seasons, and it's okay, and it's good to do certain things at certain times and not at11:24 other times. So that was a hard curve for us to learn. Even, Christy, my wife, as a couple, we were learning that. I mean, just practically, we had never driven in the snow,11:36 not once. We had skied in the snow. We had gone to skiing in California on a sunny day, but we had never driven. So we roll in with pretty much slicks from Texas where we could get away with it, and,11:48 you know, we're sliding through stop signs and all that. So, practically, there was a learning curve11:52 Yep.11:53 As well too. But it's just the population density allows for a different type of ministry. It's rare to not go to the store. You know, I flew in here today.12:05 3 people that I knew were on the plane from Traverse City. So you you it's,12:09 hey, pastor Doug. Hey, pastor Doug. How are12:11 you doing? And I, most often love that. Sometimes it can be a pain when I'm I'm going somewhere. So that's a different context as well too.12:19 Yeah. I like them.12:20 Yeah.12:20 Yeah. But you're you're gonna ask about difference between itinerant12:23 and preaching? Yeah. And my judginess.12:25 Yeah. I don't think it's judginess. It's it's definitely different. So when you're itinerant when I was itinerant and I was getting up and, you know, you could almost see when you're walking to the pulpit, it's like, oh,12:37 my pastor's not here. I picked the wrong Sunday to come. So if you're even slightly good, people are like, that was awesome. Yeah. And if you're good, they think you're the best ever because when you're itinerant, 112:48 thing that you can do that you can't do as a preacher of the word is you can nuance stories, you can tell stories. So I had more than 10 messages.12:57 Yeah. No. I know.12:58 But I probably had, like, 30 or 40 that were, like, keystone messages for me Yeah. With lots of stories interlaced. So I was set up in such a way, and I probably could still do this if I had a little time. You know, if13:07 I'm preaching for a week at a camp, morning and night for 5 days, I'm already ready before I get there. I know every story, and I know every pause, and I know because I've done this.13:17 Yes.13:18 Very different than when you're seeking the Lord and you're teaching through a text.13:21 Yes.13:21 Because there's so many texts that I've had to teach out here. I'm like, I would never preach this text. Or I wouldn't preach this text this week because I just met with those people, and they're gonna think I'm talking13:31 about them or whatever it is. And so because, you know, it's 1 thing to, to see it in the word and believe it. It's another thing to proclaim it and herald it. Yes. Especially among people that you love and care about.13:43 Yes.13:43 And so it's giving me much greater courage and, what's the word I'm looking for? Faith and belief in the authority of God's word I love that. You know, than it was when I was at tenor. I I believe the13:55 gospel. I still believe the gospel. I love the gospel, but the authority of God's word for me because they're you know, like, for me here, I got taught a series about 4 years ago, I think, called the Alpha and Omega14:06 series. I did the first 11 chapters of the Bible and the, the last 22. Oh. So those 33 chapters. I did Revelation in the first 11 chapters and just taught it. Loved it. And I was realizing as I was teaching through14:18 Genesis because, you know, people would ask me all the time, as a tenner, what do you believe about the Earth's age? Wait. Like, I don't care. I believe Jesus is Lord. And yeah. And I still believe that. I don't think14:27 Right. Right. What your belief of the age of the Earth is salvific or anything like that. But it it got me to a place like, if God wrote in his word and it's true, then why is it not being heralded as a truth? And what I14:38 used to say is, well, that's a secondary tertiary issue, and I think there are some that are that way. There's open handed, close handed issues. However, I've gotten to a place, like, even on the open handed issues,14:48 there's biblical authority for a lot of open handed issues, and I wanna believe what the Bible has to say. Even if people would say, well, that's not as important. It may not dictate where I spend eternity, but it's14:58 important because god said it.14:59 Yeah.15:00 And so, you know, he was ashamed of me and my words. Yeah. I'll be ashamed when he when I come. So I I don't wanna be ashamed of the word of god. You know? And So15:08 interesting because, like you, we preach through books and Right. Verse by verse. And, I find every every new 1 I study becomes my favorite. I don't know if15:20 that's true for you. And so I know that's God's growing me versus the 40 messages that you had or whatever. It's not that you didn't believe those or weren't thrilled with those, but I see God growing me through the15:31 study. Like, we're preaching through first Samuel now. I'm coming up to the, you know, the witch of Endor or something like that. Okay. How's that gonna play? And what is all that about? Well, I've never dug a done a15:41 deep dive into any of that.15:42 Hundred percent.15:43 And so,15:45 I was at our school this week. They did, ask pastor Jeff hour and a half session.15:49 And 115:49 of the questions was, of course, what's your favorite book of the Bible? Old Testament New. And and I gave him the exact same answer that you gave. Because as I'm thinking about it, I'm like, usually, it's whatever book15:58 I'm preaching in. Yep. Because I see a depth and a, strength and a presence of God that I didn't realize was in that book because I'm forced to read sections over and over and16:10 over and over and over again. How does that align with the context of the book? How does that align with the rest of scripture? And now all of a sudden, man, I love this book.16:17 Absolutely. Okay. I have a question for you. Similar vein along, sermon preparation that I often ask other pastors. Do you have a separate time for devotional16:29 input, than your study time? Or is it as it pertains to your devotional life in the word of God, is it 1 and the same?16:39 I'd say both and.16:40 K.16:41 I'm probably unique in the way that I prepare sermons. I Yeah. I'm not a guy that's gonna sit down for 8 hours and just clock out exegetically, do all this stuff. I'm I'm more early in the week. I know what I'm doing.16:53 Yep.16:53 And I and then it marinates with me. So a lot of my sermon prep comes from conversations like these, and what's the spirit doing, and how am I praying, and prayer is a huge part of my sermon prep. Now I'm in the word,17:03 and I'm reading all that. However, I'm also you know, whether it's a devotional book, or it's my time with the Lord, or if my prayer time leads me in a certain way, I'm doing that. Prayer drives my17:15 time with the Lord. It just does.17:16 Yeah.17:17 And so there are weeks where it's like, no. This is where I'm this is what I'm thinking about. This is where I'm at. This is my text. This is what the Lord's doing. This is where I'm at. There's other times where there's17:25 different things. But, like, coming out of my messages, the reason I have a hard time is because I'm not a guy that when I preach, I could go back and preach the same message a month from now. Because if I did, it'd be17:36 different because of where I'm living17:38 Yeah.17:38 And who I'm talking to, and the way it's coming out of me.17:41 Yes.17:42 And I've noticed even, you know do you have 2 services in your church?17:45 Yeah. Yeah.17:45 Yeah. I noticed for me, we did we did 2 services that I'm preaching in, and depending on who's in the audience, different things get prompted to come Yes. Out of me. You know, so this weekend, you know, was17:57 last weekend, I'm I'm talking and it comes out this way. I mean, all the points are the same points, and all the truths are the same truths. I mean, the stories are the same stories, but then there's nuance to what I'm18:06 saying that comes out differently, first service and second or vice versa.18:10 Yeah.18:10 Totally get that. Yeah. Similar on on that between the services in particular. Yeah. And I I don't separate. Some guys are really strict on that. I separate devotional time from study time because it's for me. For18:22 them, I I don't know how to separate that.18:24 Well, you18:24 know, who are the sermon prepping and literally down on my knees praying, God, forgive me or God, help me or Yes. Whatever. Yeah.18:30 So that's18:31 how I feel. Okay.18:32 Yeah. Because I feel like there's so many times where you're getting ready to preach a text, and it's like, okay. How do we how do I preach something that I'm still growing in? Which is every single text. Like, there's18:41 never been a time where I've gotten this text. Goodness. I've mastered this 1. Yes. You know what I'm saying? There's a there's a depth that you can't plumb in the scriptures. Yep. And so, you know, like, pastor James18:52 used to always say, you know, it's it's not about the messenger. It's about the message, and I 100 percent agree with that. However, it's about the messenger.18:59 It's gotta be here, Mark.19:00 Because if I'm not aligned with the spirit of God and I'm not a clean vessel for him to use, then the messenger he's using can't bring the message. So Yeah. The word of God is the authority, not the messenger. I totally19:11 agree with that. But the messenger's heart is not right, then it's tough for the spirit of God to use that with the same level of power.19:18 Hundred percent. In fact, I would, adding on to that, I would be fearful to preach separate from what I knew God's word said Mhmm. If I hadn't already made my life19:30 in alignment with it. Mhmm.19:32 So thereShow more In this video 0:00 The Journey of Church Planting
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