Skip to content 183: The Questions That Led Me to Christ, Part 2 | George Gray & Garry Ingraham Sep 29 · 49 min ...more
183: The Questions That Led Me to Christ, Part 2 | George Gray & Garry Ingraham
September 29, 2026 · 49 min
In the second part of his conversation with Garry, Pastor George Gray explores biblical context, apologetics, false teaching, and the danger of elevating leaders. George also shares his wife Samantha’s cancer journey and how God met their family through treatment, uncertainty, and fear. Join us for an honest conversation about discernment, suffering, and faith anchored in Christ.
Series Love & Truth Network Podcast - Video Edition
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September 29, 2026 · 49 min · Love & Truth Network Podcast - Video Edition
In the second part of his conversation with Garry, Pastor George Gray explores biblical context, apologetics, false teaching, and the danger of elevating leaders. George also shares his wife Samantha’s cancer journey and how God met their family through treatment, uncertainty, and fear. Join us for an honest conversation about discernment, suffering, and faith anchored in Christ. ...more Show the full description Show less In the second part of his conversation with Garry, Pastor George Gray explores biblical context, apologetics, false teaching, and the danger of elevating leaders. George also shares his wife Samantha’s cancer journey and how God met their family through treatment, uncertainty, and fear. Join us for an honest conversation about discernment, suffering, and faith anchored in Christ.
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In this video 0:00 Contextual Bible Study and Answering Questions Well15:00 Understanding the Bible's Formation and Avoiding Proof Texting29:00 Finding Faithful Teachers and Learning from Failures45:00 Suffering Well Through Cancer47:09 Connecting with River of Life Church
Contextual Bible Study and Answering Questions Well 0:00 Well, hey, friends. I wanted to do a quick introduction to this week's podcast because it's part 2 of what we did last week. So last week, I was interviewing, Pastor George Gray and we had a great conversation. We're0:11 gonna continue that because it went a little bit long. We're We're gonna continue that this week. So if you weren't listening last week, go ahead and back up and catch that episode. And, again, enjoy the podcast. It was0:20 a good 1. Well and I I love the the finer point that you're putting to it, George, in terms of the the reality that God had real intention for what he was writing to us, obviously. And0:32 while while you know, as I've read through the scriptures, it doesn't matter what season of life I'm in, there is something new in them. So there is this it's almost Oh, yeah. Kind of this never ending story in a sense0:43 of application that, that the holy spirit is able to make on our lives that's very different than 20 years ago, 10 years ago, last year. And and I love that about the scriptures.0:54 Pardon me. And I and I love that about the scriptures. The, but I also wanna come back to what we talked about a moment ago and how we need to really make application that1:06 is accurate, what you were talking about, George, according to the context of what it's written in. It's all it's context, context, context. It isn't there's there's been way too much, proof texting going on in terms of
1:18 pulling out a particular verse from its context and making it say something that maybe technically it actually does say. But when you put it back into its context, it has a fuller meaning or it has a different meaning
1:28 than when we just pull it out on its own. So there's a lot of that that's going on. Again, this kind of buffet approach, to the scriptures or maybe even not even just buffet, but, like, potluck. You know, I'm gonna bring
1:40 something and toss it in there, and I'm maybe I'll take something if somebody else has put in. And it's it's really kinda crazy. The the other thing that you mentioned and you've mentioned it a couple of times now in in
1:50 what you've shared. A moment ago, you talked about how, you know, people asking questions of of of others, of pastors or whatever, who have, not had good
2:02 answers. They've they've either brushed it off. They've not I I'm reminded of when Nancy Piercy was on our podcast, and she talked about that very thing. She talked about it as a young girl. Like, she obviously
2:14 Nancy Piercy has an amazing intellect, is a real scholar, and and she went to I can't remember if it was a I think it was a teacher, who was talking about biblical things, spiritual things, and and
2:26 was teaching those things. And she just went and had a private conversation and asked him a few questions about why do we believe? Why do you believe what it is that you believe about this? And she was really searching.
2:37 And and all he did to her is he shrugged his shoulders and literally say, it works for me. And that was the answer of this wise person supposedly to this gen these genuine
2:48 questions that were being asked by someone who was trying to figure out spirituality and God and how this matters to her. And she walked away from that thinking, well, there's obviously no answers here. I mean, she
2:58 embraced atheism. And, I mean, thankfully, the lord obviously brought her back. But I I it just underscores that point and the several that you've mentioned underscore how
3:10 we have to stop being lazy and sloppy with, the genuine questions that are being asked. And and, actually, maybe even someone might even be coming in with an agenda, and they're really
3:22 not asking a question. It's more of a gotcha thing or whatever. That certainly does happen. But even someone coming like that, I have heard story after story of where a loving,
3:33 gentle, solid response based in knowledge or even based in, you know, that is a great question. I don't fully know the answer to that. But, George, you pointed out, we have
3:45 no excuse today for you know, we don't have to go through all this copious work of trying to find answers. We have no excuse today not to research and come back to somebody with a thorough understanding
3:57 of what the scriptures actually teach on these various topics that are being asked of us. And and so, again, I just think that that young people, especially, they're looking for authentic
4:09 lives. They're looking for people who are living what they say that they're living, and they're looking for relationship. And they also have a lot of questions that we need to get a lot better about answering, fully.
4:21 Yeah. Absolutely. I I love seeing, some of the new younger theologians like Wes Huff. You know, it's kinda kinda coming around. He's just got this fresh perspective
4:33 where he's not afraid. A lot of the old school theologians that have, you know, they've been in the in the spotlight for years Yes. Have to I mean, when you 1st listen to them, they can be very, very intimidating. But
4:45 the more you listen to me realize they have a very clear denominational bent, And they are defending that bent, not necessarily just expounding on
4:56 on the passage.
4:57 That's a great point.
4:58 And I I love when when people yeah. When people are willing to look at something, you know, I had so I did a, an introduction to to Apologetics course a number of years ago. And there was a girl,
5:10 a young lady who has been, he she's still in the church. She's doing great now. But she was a lifelong Christian, and we started off the study with just a couple of
5:23 really simple questions. And 1 of them was, did God inspire the English Bible? Now I I phrase it very intentionally that way, because the normal American, you know, viewpoint is, well, yeah. Of
5:34 course. You're like, okay. Stop. Which 1? Because, like, I have 30 something on my on my shelf, and I have a program with, like, 40 more. You know, so so which version of the English bible did god
5:46 inspire? And it's made it everyone just stopped, and they realized, oh my gosh. No. He didn't. God inspired the bible as it was written. And all
5:58 and all of a sudden, you could feel it was almost tangible. You could feel the room just stop and they realized, okay. I have to look at this differently. And and just having a basic conversation. At the end
6:10 of the class, the girl was like, I don't even know if I'm a Christian anymore. Because she always believed that the Bible just existed. And and and she was in her mid thirties. Grew up in church,
6:22 had never been confronted with the reality that the Bible, as we know it, had been assembled over a period of years through a lot of work, a lot of labor, and a lot of guidance through through through
6:33 God. And and, you know, there's that we we still respect it for what it is. But she always thought that it just, like, it just existed. Like, it's always been the same. Like, okay. I appreciate that, but that's
6:45 not the historical truth behind it. There's a little more to it. You know? And there's still arguments that go along with it. And we were just having a conversation just about 1st Corinthians. It's just like, you know,
6:56 that 1st book that Paul wrote to the Corinthians. I said, well, you know, 1st of all, it was the 2nd, not the not the 1st. And it's written in response to a letter that we don't have. So, you know, and it just asking
7:08 people what's the difference between a letter and a book. You know? And so I, at 1 point, I pulled up this love letter from, World War 2. And this is, this is 1 of this is 1 of my favorite illustrations when you're
7:19 talking when when I'm when I'm doing a a a a class on New Testament. Just the difference between a letter the letter and a and a book and and un meaning to understand that context. And so it was a it was a goodbye
7:30 letter. So after World War 2, a lot of the wives whose husbands didn't come home were encouraged to write letters letters kinda saying goodbye. And so it it's I I pulled this letter up,
7:42 and I read the letter. And if you read it, like, it's it's pretty powerful. But Yeah. We don't know who we don't know who sent it. And I actually don't know if it is 1 of those letters.
7:54 But if you read it, it could go either way. So I asked the question at the end of it. Is he alive or is he dead? The conversations are usually pretty fun because there's people who are very adamant about 1
8:06 saying, clearly, he's alive because of this. Clearly, he's dead because of this. And so we get into this conversation that we have very intensely held beliefs about something that could be answered
8:18 if we just knew the 2 people the the 1 who was writing it and the 1 who was receiving it. If we understand what's going on if we understood them at all, that question answers
8:29 itself. I don't have to come up with the answer. And and it helps everyone realize that we have to understand them, not just the English translation of it. So it just opens up this whole
8:41 this this whole different narrative because we love to like, you were talking about proof texting. We love to go and grab a sentence that says what we want it to say, but we're completely
8:53 ignoring the context because that might be something that they're dealing with there, not necessarily something that is universal for the whole church of all time. And so we have to we have to put the flesh this out.
9:05 And it is not easy, but it is Right. Vitally important. And some of these new theologians are willing they are willing to engage in that process. And I I find it just
9:17 just refreshing to to see it. I mean, I I wish I mean, if I go back in time instead of culinary school, I'd go to seminary. But, you know, these guys who have the qualifications you know, it's 1 thing for me to
9:29 say it. It's different for someone, you know, who has their doctorate in ancient languages to go, oh, yeah. That's exactly what it means. Because there's 2 levels of authority that are there, you know. And it's just
9:40 great to see it because new Christians, especially today, they have more information available to them in the palm of their hands. Since then most of us grew up grew up
9:52 in the grew up in the church who've been Christians for 20, 30 years ever had availability to. And the problem is not all of it is good information. You know? No. For
10:01 sure. And Yeah. And, George, I I just wanna say right there, like, when you talk about new theologians, I agree that that for someone who is is really
10:12 looking at the word and wanting to align their life to the word of God Mhmm. Versus creating God in our image, versus, having, you know, Ali Bastocki wrote the book, toxic empathy.
10:24 But whether it's that, there's other books that have that are that are out there that are talking about how our, emotions, our good intentions, our desires to help others, our desires to show
10:36 mercy or whatever, though those are good things, but those can easily become hijacked in ways that I don't think we necessarily have anticipated or realized we're kind of right in the middle of. So I say all that to say
10:47 this, how can people what is your advice and input for how people can find, quote, unquote, new theologians who are actually biblical theologians and not part of this, you
10:59 know, new age or new thought or, this amalgamation or syncretistic, perspective of adding in a bunch of nonsense into the scriptures, throwing a 1st few verses out using
11:11 words like grace and gospel and things like that. But they mean very radically different things than what the true believer means.
11:18 Yeah. That's a that for someone who's not, like, baptized into the space, it's it it can be difficult. And some of the some of the best places that I found is to
11:29 to go to, national apologetics organizations. 1 thing that progressive groups are never going to get involved with are is apologetics because apologetics
11:41 goes it goes into certainty. You know? And I think it was Rob Bell who said beware of Christians with bible with certainty and bible verses. You know? And so, like, it because they don't like the idea that there is
11:52 actually an answer, and that is the answer. Yes. They they they they love the the the just just just the, having something out there in the ether. So if you can find, like, Westhoff as the, president, I think, of
12:04 Apologetics Canada. You know, and there there are various apologetics organizations. And if you look at those Yep. Chances are you're going to get, a better pool of people to
12:16 draw from, you know. And and it doesn't mean that everyone's gonna all opinions are gonna align. But Right. What I found across, actually, I haven't found any exceptions. All apologetics organizations that
12:27 I've looked into agree on all of the major doctrines. Where they where they disagree is in the stuff that you're allowed to disagree on. You know? That's fine. That's no big deal. But all of
12:39 the core doctrinal positions, scriptural authority, you know, they they all align on those. And their answers are are very clear. They're very beautifully centered. And
12:51 especially the new guys, they did this. They just do such a good job explaining it in reachable terminology. You know, there's there's it's it's it's nice to
13:03 to get into, you know, big theological words, you know, the big the big 5 dollar words that are that are great, but no 1 cares. You know, if I'm gonna sit down and do a long message on pre
13:15 pre, preincarnate Christopheles, that's great. That may that may tickle someone's ears. But, you know, for a long time, I didn't even know what that word meant. You know? It sounds great. But who cares if you can't
13:27 explain it in ways that people can can reach it, then you probably shouldn't have explained it that way. You know, and I go back to that way. Application too. Absolutely. I mean, you think of the way Jesus Jesus
13:39 taught. He taught in reachable a lot of it stories and parables. He put it in terms where everybody he was talking to could could understand it. You know? And then nowadays, in
13:51 our theology, we fight over, you know, what the meanings could have been, rather than just going back to what it probably meant to them in in in those days, which is which is funny, you know. A little annoying, but
14:02 funny.
14:02 Along that line, George, I I wanna just mention, there are several there's a bunch of, apologetics, organizations out there. And a couple of them that I'm familiar
14:14 with, Stand to Reason is 1 of those. I know, Robbie Leshua, I believe, is is 1 individual who's now taken the lead pastor role of a church out here in the Phoenix area. He was, I believe he was
14:26 with Stand to Reason for a period of time as a as someone traveling and doing apologetics, but there's a a lot of people within that space. Our boys, my teenage boys, have gotten involved in, the last couple of
14:38 years in Worldview Camp. And so, you know, that's that's available for young people, and it was profound. They've they're signed up for 0.333 time because they wanted to go back again. And, Summit Ministries is another,
14:49 I think, that connects both with young people. I think it may do, young adults as well as far as apologetics. But I I already mentioned Melissa Doherty. You know, she has a podcast. She's phenomenal. She's young.
Understanding the Bible's Formation and Avoiding Proof Texting
15:01 She's she's spot on. And, again, her book, Happy Lies is, really powerful and very eye opening. Also, Alisa Childers is another 1 Yep. Who's been around for a while.
15:12 Very good.
15:12 And her book, Another Gospel, is is an excellent resource for people to begin to spot falsehood that is the the the reason this is so, challenging, I think, is because
15:24 and this is what the enemy does. Right? He mixes in, truth with falsehood. And and because we recognize the truth and we and so therefore, it must all be true. No. Not at all. A lot of times, we've
15:36 got a lot of garbage mixed in with what's true. So those are just a couple of names. Stand to reason, look them up. Also, again, Lisa Childers, Melissa Daugherty, great
15:48 resources. But that's also brings to mind, the the other reality that when you were talking about, apologetics organizations, I agree with you. I think you're spot on on
16:00 recommending that people, look to those who get involved, in in study. But I also can't avoid then talking about Ravi's, Ravi Zacharias. I mean, he was an apologist. Right? And and yet in
16:11 his case, in Robbie's case, he actually, after his death, it was discovered that he had all kinds of sexual impropriety going on, in in his life while he's going out and teaching.
16:23 And and and he was phenomenal. I used to love to listen to the guy. And, honestly, he was spot on on in the in the things he was talking about in terms of the scriptures, but his life, which, again, 1 of the
16:35 reasons our ministry exists. Right? Because we recognize that there are lots of pastors, lots of leaders, lots of, individuals involved in sexual sin and, and and idolatry of that nature. And and Ravi was
16:47 1 of those that even though he headed up this amazing organization and did such great work, his, there was a serious pocket of his life that was, not not
16:59 exposed, not known, by most people, and only, only became known after his death. So so the idea, I don't know if you have anything you wanna add to that, but this idea that even in those
17:11 spaces, people can be compromised in core areas of their life, but you are safer in trying to understand the question I asked George earlier. How can you how can you determine
17:23 especially with newer young people, how can you, make a distinction between what is a a combination of truth and error, truth and lies, versus somebody who's
17:34 really searching out the scriptures and and is coming at this from, a wholehearted perspective of giving God honor and glory and coming under his authority. And, again, I still think the best way is what you said,
17:46 George, of finding some of these reputable, apologetic organizations and and digging in, finding people who are speaking and sharing, that you can, learn from.
17:58 But, again, I'm just pointing out, obviously, people can still be compromised even in those spaces. So, ultimately, we don't Absolutely. Our faith and hope and trust in the individual, but we are putting it in Jesus. But
18:09 we can find people who are no one's perfect, but we can find people who are following hard after God, yet our faith and trust has to be in Jesus Christ alone. But what are your thoughts about that?
18:20 Abs I think it's absolutely true. I I find, I was the the same the same thing. I I loved, I loved Ravi. I'd just just I I found him so
18:32 reachable. It's like, Alisa Childress also talks about how she he, like, pulled her back from the brink, you know. And it was just Mhmm. It's just a bank of of, of knowledge. And, when it all happened, 1 of the
18:44 things that I thought about was, not to make a direct comparison, but it reminded me a little bit of David. You know, we still teach from the Psalms, you know, even though you got
18:56 this guy who's an adulteress mass murderer, that, you know, like, which which adulteress mass murderer do you wanna do you wanna preach from in in the Bible? You know, we got we got David, and then, of course, then you
19:05 got the mass murder of Paul. You know, you got you got all these people realize, okay. The the the biblical greats tend to be a collection of sinners in need of a savior.
19:18 You know? And and and we always get reminded that, you know, no matter what your, I I said once once from the pulpit, whether you're talking about John MacArthur, Jeff Durbin, or the pope, they're
19:30 all just, you know, sinners in need of a savior. And none of them we stand before none of them in our judgment. We stand before god. Right. And no matter how good the teaching might be, no matter
19:42 how amazing they are, we we never put our faith in them. You know? Like, I think West Westhoff is amazing. He is now my savior. You know? And if he had if it comes out that, you know, sometime
19:53 down the road, they I hope hopefully not. But, you know, that there's an issue in his life. That's great. I hope he finds redemption. But Yeah. My face with my faith was never in him. You know? Mhmm. And, that that idea
20:05 that, you know, even, it doesn't matter how bad someone's life ends. Life is 2 plus 2 still equals 4. And so a truth is still a truth. And I knew a
20:17 lot a lot of people who would just take any, any of Ravi's stuff. And they're just like, well, there's gotta gotta have a Ravi Zacharias book burning. And and I I and I don't know if
20:29 that's if that's true. I mean, I I'm pretty sure I own all of his books. Mhmm. But just be I mean, he had an he had sin in his life,
20:41 so do I. But that doesn't mean that every that that everything that he did was fruitless. You know? And and I I think that's where people go wrong. You know?
20:53 There's, there's a people who will always and it's unfortunate. Their their attachment is to the is to the preacher. You know? And people when, you know,
21:05 when you you look at probably the more more recent good example is John MacArthur, you know, and you look at what's going on in his church right now, it's kinda falling apart. And it makes you makes you wonder, okay,
21:16 where where was the loyalty? Where I mean, was he elevated to that point where it just was out of it was out of balance at that point.
21:26 Right.
21:26 You know? And it kinda goes back to you. We want churches that don't need us. We want churches that are focusing on on on God and their calling. But it's that that idea of, like, where do people go to to really get solid
21:38 information. 1 of the things I think is good about today is that there are so many very public failures. You know, and you you look at different groups, and some of the NAR
21:50 groups that that are being exposed right now. And Mike Wiegand did an amazing job, doing some, unfortunate, you know, exposes on a number of of high profile people. That is happening
22:02 so fast today. I think it is it has caused a number of people to who would be charlatans to stop and really consider what they're what they're doing. Because you don't get away with anything
22:14 today. Everything is recorded. Everything is repeatable. You know? And even just the the advent of AI and AI generated video and voice emulation, you have to be
22:26 so careful with what's going on. My wife and I were just talking about it. You know, they need 15 seconds of audio to emulate your voice, to be able to pop into to a video.
22:38 And, she was asking me she was asking me, she goes, you know, are you are you nervous about this? I said, honestly, I've got, you know, almost 20 years of messages online now. It's not gonna take any it's not gonna
22:50 take anyone any time. If they really wanted to do something horrible, I don't know. I can't stop them unless I have a history of credibility than being very public with my own
23:02 life and my own issues, my own, you know, my own need of a savior constantly and and daily. If I if I choose to put my life and I think this is where some of these guys went wrong. They had a secret life. They had their
23:13 public life. Right. They had their they had their and then they had their their their their own personal private life.
23:18 Yes.
23:19 And the 2 didn't they 2 didn't mix. And when the spotlight was shown on the private life, it it just ended it.
23:26 That's
23:26 that's where I or I I think it's just better. The people that I look for are the people who are really obvious. You know, they'll you get you get on their you get on their Facebook page, and they have family vacation
23:37 photos, and they have them doing nonsense. You know? I don't know if a theologian should should talk about the barbecue in her backyard. I'm like, why not? I want to know that this person is a person, you
23:49 know, not not just some some elevated theologian on a on a pedestal. You know? I want them to I want to know that I can connect with this person. If I if I met this person in a restaurant, I wanna know that it would be
24:01 okay to sit down and have a conversation, and they would they would be fine with that. You know? That's the people that I that I look for. And, it's it's it's difficult. It it really is. And then we're gonna
24:13 be disappointed periodically in our lives. But, I I think if God can deal with my disappointments, you know, from from my own my own failures, I can probably deal with with with everybody else's. And if
24:25 God gave David a 2nd chance, then I I'm gonna I'm gonna on the side of of grace and and patience and, and then let God sort it out, you know, on his own.
24:35 He's just working. The thing
24:36 about Ravi
24:37 that's a little bit the thing about Ravi that's a little bit different, I think, is that, you know I mean and and you're right. I I think it's a really good comparison to say, look. Let's talk about David. Let's talk
24:48 about Paul. Let's talk about so many of the of the men, and women that that were used in the scriptures, and and look at their lives. You know? Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The thing to me
25:00 that's that's challenging and disturbing about Ravi is that he died, still, you know, as far as I know, as far as anyone knows and from the investigation. And in the beginning, before the investigation happened, when I
25:11 1st started hearing this stuff about him, I just rolled my eyes and thought, oh my gosh. Here we go. Trying to trying to blow up a man's life and it, I mean, I just assumed that it was probably crap, and then it turned
25:22 out it wasn't. You know? It was actually based in, well researched and investigated information about his double life and his compromise. And and where it's different from a Paul or a,
25:34 David or those things is not that they did anything not that they didn't do similar things, but there was a there was repentance. Right? And so I think that leaves us with this there's a greater tension in my mind at
25:46 least to, to navigate this, but it doesn't in any way negate what you said in that he he communicated so much of god's truth.
25:58 And and to throw the bay again, to burn all of his books or do not have anything to do with the things that he communicated, I I I would say, is a mistake. Read those books. Listen to his material
26:10 with with open eyes and an open heart, and see if there's something that now having a fuller picture of what was going on in his life. Is there anything that kinda jumps out at you as as something that doesn't make
26:20 sense? But I would say the vast majority of what he communicated is spot on biblical truth. So Yeah. Having said that, though, George, as we're getting ready to wrap up here, in our podcast. Again, I really appreciate
26:32 you, joining us. Yeah. How can people, a couple things I wanna ask you about. How can people get connected to, River of Life? I know you guys are, that you that you
26:44 stream and that you, your content's available. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you if they have either either questions, maybe about our podcast that they wanna ask you directly, or if they're just
26:55 interested in tuning in and and picking up some of your information?
26:58 Yeah. Easiest thing to do is to jump on the, the website. It's, rip it's, river of life church dot o r g. There's contact information. The emails will come right to me, or jump on the
27:10 YouTube. And, again, it's just just River of Life Church, and then, of course, our Facebook page. We do I do the best I can to to get to any of the, any of the questions and comments. And, some of them
27:22 some of them can be pretty interesting, and and some of them are even colorful. But it's, you know, you're in ministry long enough, you just it it's it's, you know, whatever. It it works fine. But, sometimes
27:34 sometimes the more colorful ones turn into really interesting conversations, if if you let it, you know. But, that would be the easiest easiest thing to do. We, you know, we live stream every week. And I even,
27:46 whenever I do a class, I'm doing a class right now. I'm preaching and teaching. All that content will be, private until the class is over. And then, once the students are done with it, it all gets released. And it's all
27:57 just, you know, for whoever wants it. Yep. And, that's the that's probably the easiest way to do it. Yep.
28:04 Okay. I appreciate that. Yeah. 1 of the thing I do not wanna kinda neglect here is, you know, sometimes, I think people can have a view of of a pastor. You know, I talked about this. Can have a view
28:16 of a pastor as either putting them on a pedestal, that's easy to do. And I think sometimes pastors wind up sort of unconsciously training people to sort of put them in that place as well. That that that can be a
28:28 challenge. But but I think many times people aren't aware of all of the challenges of life just like they are going through. And so you and your wife, Samantha, have have really
28:40 been going through a lot the last couple of years at least, with regard to her cancer diagnosis and surgeries and treatments and all of that. Can you just share a little bit about, the
28:52 origins of that and and and a bit of what that's been like, to walk through?
28:57 Oh, it's been it's been amazing. It's not something I would ever wish on anybody. But, what we've learned and the way we've grown in the last 2 years, I I don't know if,Show more
Garry Ingraham48.2K followers
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