Skip to content 189: When Knowing the Truth Isn’t Enough | Anne Edward & Garry Ingraham Nov 10 · 1 hr 4 min ...more
189: When Knowing the Truth Isn’t Enough | Anne Edward & Garry Ingraham
November 10, 2026 · 1 hr 4 min
What happens when we know Scripture but still feel ashamed or alone? Anne Edward of Restored Hope Network returns to discuss with Garry confession, prayer, and trustworthy relationships, along with ministry to people navigating unwanted same sex attraction or gender questions. Listen as they explore religious liberty and equipping churches to offer compassionate, biblical support.
Series Love & Truth Network Podcast - Video Edition November 10, 2026 · 1 hr 4 min · Love & Truth Network Podcast - Video Edition
What happens when we know Scripture but still feel ashamed or alone? Anne Edward of Restored Hope Network returns to discuss with Garry confession, prayer, and trustworthy relationships, along with ministry to people navigating unwanted same sex attraction or gender questions. Listen as they explore religious liberty and equipping churches to offer compassionate, biblical support. ...more Show the full description Show less What happens when we know Scripture but still feel ashamed or alone? Anne Edward of Restored Hope Network returns to discuss with Garry confession, prayer, and trustworthy relationships, along with ministry to people navigating unwanted same sex attraction or gender questions. Listen as they explore religious liberty and equipping churches to offer compassionate, biblical support.
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0:00 So much of what drives those that want to shut down the right of self determination, that want to shut down a person's ability to have choice about which direction they go in and0:12 to find help and support pastorally counseling, in in whatever manner they desire is it's really not about supporting the person. It's about an ideology that at all costs, we have to0:24 circle the wagons and, and promote is the only option.0:28 The research now shows that about nine percent of the US population generally over all the different generations deals with homosexuality or gender confusion. Shouldn't people who want0:40 to leave homosexuality also be supported? That's not that hard to say, is it? And, yes, of course, they should. Is someone gonna say no to that?0:49 If you're laboring under accusations, often internalized accusations, often unresolved wounds or issues in your own heart. Many times we feel like, well, I can sort of do that because1:01 it's me. And the truth is you're no more... God no more wants us to be against ourselves as he wants us to be against someone else or to be full of self hatred any more than he wants us to hate someone else.1:13 I'm not changing my view because of pressure Yep. From the other side that you can't have that viewpoint. It's not gonna happen. So we use wisdom. We use grace. We, follow the1:25 law as much as possible as it depends upon us to make peace with all men. And yet, if their laws supersede or counteract God's law, we1:36 obey God.1:38 Welcome to the Love and Truth Network podcast, your guide for hope and healing in a hurting world searching for truth. Here, we explore God's extraordinary design for biblical sexuality, identity, and authentic
1:49 community. You'll be impacted by incredible stories of transformation, practical wisdom from pastors and counselors, and the power of God's grace that changes lives.
2:08 Well, hey there, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of the Love and Truth Network podcast. I'm excited. This is the second time that Anne Edward has been with us. She was actually... She
2:19 joined me for episode twenty nine. I was scrolling back, like, a year ago, maybe two years ago. So, Anne, it's been close to three years ago since you and I sat down for a podcast interview. A couple things have happened
2:30 in between then and now, I think.
2:32 A couple things. You got that right.
2:35 Yeah. I know. I know exactly. It's so good to see you. You're one of my favorite people. You are such a hard worker, and, you know, our ministry, Love and Truth Network and Transforming Congregations, and I know so many
2:47 others that are member ministries of Restored Hope Network. You're the executive director of Restored Hope Network, and we couldn't be happier to be affiliated and aligned, with an organization as we are with
2:58 Restored Hope Network. And you've been here from the beginning, you know, from the days when Exodus International, when both my wife, Melissa, and you and so many others were just so delighted in the work that
3:10 Exodus International was doing just, biblically in such a solid way. And then, you know, a few... Couple years, two, three, four years in the end, it just really tanked and, by design.
3:22 But, we're grateful for Restored Hope Network, being raised up. You being the leader of that, you've just been so solid, so faithful, so committed, to the truth of God's word, but also
3:34 really communicating all that in such a loving and dynamic way. So we're really happy to have you back on our podcast.
3:40 Well, I'll tell you what, I... You're one of my favorite people. So I just wanna let you know. And we're so grateful that you, I, and the board, and you've served on the board, Every Story of Hope. And I'll tell
3:52 you, I'm just really grateful for you, Gary. Your long suffering, your insight, your stick to it ness, your steadfastness is a better word. But, yeah, I'm grateful
4:04 to, be joining you today, but I'm also grateful for you. So
4:09 Yeah. Thanks, Anne. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And so I wanted to just point people back to the twenty ninth episode of our podcast to be able to pick up and hear your story back there.
4:21 So we're not going to reprise that. There could be some pieces and parts naturally that you might wanna bring in, and and some of those may be repetition, or repetitious from what you shared before a little bit, but it
4:33 never hurts to repeat something again. And some people might not go back and listen to the full thing, but there's also new pieces. Whenever I tell my story, whenever I hear others share their story, like, I I know the
4:43 common themes, and I I know a bunch of it. And then there'll be something, you know, one or two pieces like, wow. That's really cool. I I didn't even know that about you. I didn't catch that the last testimony or or two
4:52 that I heard. So, we'll just let flow what flows and, what needs to stick. We we want that to be a part of this episode, but we're just excited, though, for you viewing and listening to this.
5:05 Again, Anne has just been around, these issues for such a long time and is really, an authority on on these topics of, LGBTQ topics. And just honestly,
5:16 Anne, one of the things I love about you is not just that you have such a a depth of knowledge because of the waters you've been swimming in. Obviously, that's somewhat... That's also true for me and Melissa, but you're
5:27 such, you're so committed to discipleship. You're committed to your own discipleship. You're... You see this... Your organization, our organizations, the member ministries of Restored Hope Network is really being
5:39 disciple makers. Right? I mean, that's what this is about. This is about conversion therapy. It's about taking up our cross, denying ourselves, following after Jesus. Right?
5:47 Right. That's right. And then allowing him into the areas of the soul that need extra help, that need extra care. And I think that's so important for all of us. If we have a place that keeps us stuck,
5:59 oftentimes we need additional help. And that's what restored hope and love and truth is there for, and living waters and desert stream and all the other ministries, and counselors, and pastors
6:11 across the US is how to find that breakthrough, how to get through that. And everybody's place where they get stuck is a little bit different, but it usually is tied in with the wound of some kind, isn't it?
6:23 Yeah. It really is. I would love for you to share. I... I've talked about this in a number of our own, podcasts in the past, but I would love for you to share this from your perspective and unpack that a little bit
6:33 further. You rightly address the the needs of the soul and also wounding and those kinds of things. What have you seen either in your own life or in the lives of others? And we can spend some real time on this because I
6:44 know that one one of the things that I've experienced in many churches that I've been to, many good churches, I've I've heard a lot of truth preached. I've heard a lot of great theology, And, but
6:56 I rarely hear churches talking about the need for healing of wounds or healing of Yeah. Of those those kinds of places. I think we've also shifted to think about counseling and,
7:09 psychology as primarily, dealing with matters of, I don't know, certainly it's matters of the mind, right, and mental health. But I think that we we often think of that as strictly the
7:21 brain. It is that. But also, the entirety of the soul. And there's places that we can carry wounding that that affect us for years, decades of time, and time
7:32 doesn't heal anything. CS Lewis speaks about that. Time alone doesn't heal anything. So speak to that issue as you see it as as a needful thing within organizations like Restored Hope Network or Love and Truth
7:44 Network, but also within the church.
7:47 You know, it really, really is important that the church gets a handle on this a little bit. I feel like our ministries do that pretty well. We talk about topics, but then we offer opportunity
7:59 to respond. Did any of this touch you? How? What what areas do you think are, provoked by this? And can we talk about that, pray about it?
8:12 I'll tell you, when I was in a ministry in California, one thing that was incredibly powerful was after some discussion over a topic, we went into prayer.
8:24 Yes. And, I remember... Can ask, somebody stopped and said, Anne, I feel like you need to forgive your mom. It was Anita Worthen who said that in the middle of the
8:36 prayer time. And I thought, well, I'm not aware of needing that right now, but I went ahead and did it anyway. And the outcome was beautiful. The outcome was almost
8:47 immediate. When I went home that night, because I was living at home at that time, I was finishing up my degree. I'd moved away, done school, and had to come back, change my major, change
8:59 schools, and then I was finishing it off. And it was during that time that I saw my heart change towards my mother, which also meant that it was changing towards me as a
9:10 woman as well. Yes. So if I could embrace what she had of goodness, then I could also embrace that in myself. And it really changed my perspective. It changed my internal way
9:22 of seeing outwardly, and also seeing inwardly. Another thing that happened, I remember, being challenged by, that particular ministry, to
9:35 let's go into prayer. And as we did, I remember thinking I feel really comfortable praying with somebody joining me coming into God's presence. But I didn't feel as
9:47 comfortable going in alone. I felt like, oh, he's not gonna accept me on my own. There was some shame attached to that. I didn't know where it came from, but there just was. And, I
9:59 admitted that out loud to the people around me and that honesty, the words of honesty is the first thing that cracks the nut, you know, and then you have to deal with what's inside of it. And, I
10:10 remember in kind of a scared little way just saying, okay, Lord, I'm walking in by myself, even though there were people in the room, I'm coming to you, just you and me. And I remember sensing
10:22 him lifting my head up to look at him in the eyes. And it was just an interesting visual because my early childhood had been more consumed by porn. And so I'd had
10:34 pictures that were not good pictures and they pushed their way between me and God. And so once I confessed that to my brothers and sisters,
10:47 that that passage in James is so powerful and, and so many other passages of scripture. But if you confess your sins to one another, pray for each other that you might be healed. And indeed that happened
10:59 and that, barrier eroded. I gave up those old visions, those old pictures, even though they were old from my childhood, they still harassed me. And,
11:12 in doing that in doing that, God gave me the gift of seeing differently. It was like I could shut my eyes now and have a beautiful image that often bore
11:24 some spiritual significance. Oh, good. I was praying over a friend of mine, who we were in Bible study together and he was kind of hurting and,
11:36 he he was a long time friend. And, as I prayed for him, God gave me a picture of him as a little boy, like two years old, holding onto his daddy's finger, not his whole hand because you know, little kids
11:48 can't hold on to a whole hand. Holding onto his daddy's finger. He was wearing a cowboy hat. He was walking through a field and I was looking at his daddy, the Lord God himself holding on
12:00 with his finger down and the little boy holding his daddy's finger walking through the field together, just just casually walking in cowboy boots and all the rest. And I just said,
12:12 I don't know if this is for bad, but I'm just gonna tell you this picture, and you let me know if this is significant or not. And you just burst into tears. It was totally God. It was God ministering
12:24 to him through the pictures he gave me as a gift of giving up the old, you know? And, how often can something like that happen in a church setting?
12:36 Mhmm. Right.
12:37 I wish it was common.
12:39 Right.
12:40 I wish it was common where someone could say, hey. Can we can we... The three of us or four of us pull aside, and I'd like you guys to pray over me and, join me in asking God's
12:52 forgiveness over these things I did when I was younger. And I feel like they're still hanging on, bugging me. And having the trust in those people that they're not going to just go blab about it,
13:04 but rather they're coming before the throne of God on your behalf. And, and then you walking out clean. You're walking out Yes. No longer burdened by those things. So those are
13:15 a couple of examples. Right?
13:18 I I I love those examples, Anne. I mean, you're you're preaching what we're all about. I mean, as Love and Truth Network, but also as Restored Hope Network, it's... I... As you're sharing those stories, I... I'm thinking
13:29 back on similar stories myself, and, of course, most of our listeners, viewers, if they've been with us for a while, have heard me talk about some of the experiences that Melissa and I've had, through Desert Stream
13:40 Ministries and their Living Waters program and and some other settings as well. But very, very similar moments of of just being together, gathered together in the name of Christ and Jesus
13:52 showing up in in such powerful ways to break long standing, lies that, again, intellectually, we may agree with the truth of what the scriptures say, but emotionally, experientially,
14:04 we still feel dirty, we still feel disconnected, we still feel like there's there's something deeply wrong with us or God doesn't really want relationship... I mean, fill in the blank, whatever it is. And and I think
14:15 certainly pornography and, sexual abuse, sexual, quote, unquote, exploration, those are not just fun things that that do not leave scars. They actually set in
14:27 a lot of wounds, a lot of infection that wind up growing over time, not not reducing over time until we take it to the cross.
14:34 Yeah. And, you know, things can happen later on in life too. I remember That's true. I went through a very difficult divorce, and I was texting a group of girlfriends whom all believers,
14:47 called the wonderful women. We were in a text thread and I said, you know, I'm really struggling with anger towards this my ex right now. And, some of them said, oh, yeah. You just need to pray.
14:59 And some of them said whatever. And and I was really angry about a few of the things that he'd done that endangered the kids or did this, that, the other. And I was hurting
15:11 right then. I didn't need someone to say, oh, just, you know, brush brush it away. One woman texted back and said, Anne, don't you think that God's angry about those things too? And I'm like,
15:24 that's, yeah, he is actually. Oh, well, oh, you mean I'm not malaligned to his will? That's really... It was so refreshing to have somebody
15:36 speak truth back to me instead of just brush it under the rug.
15:40 That's right. That's
15:42 right. You know, that kind of thing is... Takes vulnerability. It takes risk from the person willing to share. And sometimes you don't get the answers that are from God, and sometimes you do.
15:54 And, Right. You know, leaning into the people that actually might have a clue. And so I had to apologize to God because actually I was judging him
16:06 as a lining up with, you know, this wrongdoing. I I can't believe how convoluted my thinking was right then. Mhmm. But I'm so grateful that that somebody called me out on it in the right way.
16:18 Yeah. Yeah. And I... I mean, right along right along with that, I've... I felt... As I look back for many, many years of my early life, especially growing up at the church and all of that, I look back now
16:30 and realize... I mean, I knew that Satan was alive and well and doing his thing, but I'm amazed at how... I guess because God is all powerful and he can do whatever he wants and so... And,
16:42 obviously... But I guess because of those things, I wound up attributing a lot of things to God that had nothing to do... Yes. He was allowing these things, but, it was as if he was causing them. And
16:54 it was, you know, rather, it's the world, it's my own flesh, it's the enemy. And I really settled God with a lot of things. Of course,
17:01 it had
17:01 nothing to do with it. And other people got the exact
17:04 bless. Right? Yep. Even Yep. Yeah. And then the outcome of that... The natural outcomes are quite unfortunate sometimes unless we come to him with those things.
17:15 That's right. He's... No really,
17:16 really true. He's he's perfect. He's true. He's faithful. He's full of fidelity. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't operate on those planes. Right? He is... Yep. He's perfectly good in an
17:27 effective way, and yet he created a free world. And that's the hard part because there are, malicious actors in the spiritual realm,
17:39 and then there's our own sinful flesh, and then there's other people's really poor, motives or just foolishness that happens around us all the time. You know?
17:51 Those are hard things. Well, and part of what
17:55 I really appreciate from... What part of what I appreciate that you're sharing too, Anne, is is, obviously, you're talking about some historic, some older, experiences that you've had, but there... Some of
18:07 this stuff is pretty fresh. It's pretty new. And and there are people listening, viewing this who may have resolved some stuff from their childhood, maybe not. Lots of people haven't. We don't hear enough about that in,
18:19 preaching and in the church. We need to hear more about it. We need to not just hear about it, but actually practice it. And, and that would... That's one of the things we'd love to help people do. I know you do. Desert
18:27 Stream Ministries, also amazing, resource, desert stream dot org. But I love that you're talking about some some of the painful stuff that's happening in in current times,
18:39 right, or very recent times because we we need to not just talk about the, you know, twenty, thirty years ago. That's fine. But what's happening today? And you're talking about how god is... How Christ is carrying you
18:50 and how he's meeting you in your wounded places today.
18:54 Yeah. And a more recent one was even somehow I had come... It didn't... This wire didn't get tripped until, relational circumstance tripped it. But Mhmm. I had come
19:06 to believe underlying that people were tired... Were tolerating me and that it was not that they wanted to be around me. I don't know why I'd come to that belief system, but over the last few years I
19:17 had. So I actually... It probably is from a long time ago, but it was being addressed now. And so, you know, I realized until I came out of my
19:29 mouth, my really what I was thinking about myself, then I could evaluate it and go, Oh, that's ridiculous. Because any time I ask a friend to do anything, they're Johnny on the spot. They're okay. Let's
19:41 go do it. You know, if I ask for help, people are right there for me. It's not as if people are trying to avoid me and are tolerating me. And yet I had come to believe
19:53 that somehow. And it wasn't until recently that got scooped off. So I'm just grateful that that foolishness is gone too. So we're we're learning creatures. If
20:05 we're not learning, we're stagnant, aren't we?
20:08 Yeah. We are. And, also, I just want our listeners or viewers to be thinking about what is it in in your life? Because there... There's still stuff in my life. There... There'll be more in your life. But I think one of
20:19 the beauties is not that God is always always has us in this place of process. He he leads us... I love, Psalm twenty three. You know, he does lead us beside the still waters. He restores our soul. He wants us
20:31 to be at rest as well. But then there's also activity, and there's also that healing opportunity that I just wanna think people to be thinking about. If you're laboring under, accusations,
20:43 often internalized accusations, often unresolved wounds or issues in your own heart, you know, it... Many times we feel like, well, I can sort of do that because it's me. And the truth is
20:55 you're no more... God no more wants us to be against ourselves as he wants us to be against someone else or to be full of self hatred any more than he wants us to hate someone else. And so there's... There are
21:07 avenues. There are resources available. There's online, ministries and organizations. I already mentioned desert stream dot org, but, restored hope network, dot org as well. Right, Anne? Yeah. Another great resource. You
21:18 can get to Desert Stream through, restored help network dot org. You can get to our ministry through that as well. But there are there are ministries available that want to work with you and help you be able
21:30 to resolve past wounding, or or current things that are coming up. And I also love how you said in the the trigger happens through relationship, and that's almost always the way that it happens. We're wounded in
21:42 relationship. We're made whole in relationship.
21:45 Yes. And if we're overreacting to something, it usually is... It's it's pricking something from the past, an old
21:52 That's right.
21:53 Unresolved thing. Right? You know? And so if we're overreacting, that's a little warning sign that, hey. Pay attention to this. This is something to deal with. Another thing
22:05 is if there are demeaning words that we're either speaking about ourselves to ourselves or demeaning words or hearing, or speaking of others, those things need to be dealt with too. Because
22:17 words are significant. They're defining. Mhmm. It it it really matters, how we see ourselves, how we see God, and words are deeply
22:28 significant.
22:30 They are.
22:31 Yeah. They're defining to about God's character. They're also defining about ours. And if we accept, demeaning words that don't fit, that's just as bad as, you
22:43 know, doing other things. It's just Yeah. Immoralizing, isn't it? So
22:48 It is. Yeah. The power of life and death is in the tongue. Right? I mean, there's... We can either... And James talks about this idea of of blessing and cursing, right, where we shouldn't be, as believers, engaging
23:00 in in cursing or tearing someone else down or tearing ourselves down. We should be engaged in blessing and building up. I was thinking earlier when I was I was kinda fiddling with my my phone and my Bible app when you
23:11 were talking earlier. I wasn't ignoring you. I was I was, trying to find something quickly. But I was thinking of a passage in second Timothy chapter three, and it is this this whole passage about,
23:23 starting in verse one about realizing that perilous times will come. Let me just let me just read this real quickly. It's really in verse, five that I wanna emphasize, but let... I just wanna read through this quickly.
23:34 So again, this is in second Timothy chapter three starting at verse one. But realize this, Paul writes to Timothy, that in the last days, difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money,
23:45 boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips. There's one. You already touched on that. This idea of
23:57 opening up and sharing deep things and having people go out and gossip about that, and God hates that kind of thing. He refers to it as malicious gossip, without self control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous,
24:08 reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. You know, when I read that as a young person or even in my twenties, I'm like, ouch. That really... Because that defines so much of what I was doing. I
24:20 was pursuing pleasure or also just an overemphasis on comfort, personal comfort. But lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, and here's verse five. This is what I was thinking of when we were talking earlier.
24:31 Holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power, and and Paul literally goes on and says avoid such men as these. So there's... I just know that there have been times in my life, I mean,
24:43 before coming to Christ, when I was living in a a very carnal life as a as a twenty year old as well, that there's been so many times in my life that I had a form of godliness, but I was not
24:55 operating under the power of it whatsoever. And when you're describing some of these experiences that I've also had really mostly through Desert Stream and Living Waters, that's where it all started and it continues to
25:04 this day of of Jesus showing up and God showing up with others, you know, praying for me or I get to pray for them. And he he does give us whether it's an image that we shared like you
25:15 did with that, with that one guy. It was so palpable and so powerful for him. Others have done that for me. And it breaks through in a way that shatters the, the lie that is lodged in our hearts.
25:27 That, again, our minds may understand what's true, but our hearts are still holding on to some past experience, some past abuse, some past wound. And and I've just seen over and over again how the power of God breaks
25:38 through in those kinds of moments of coming together and praying for each other.
25:42 A community. And like you said, you said it so powerfully that relational wounds happen, relational resolution is what's needed as well. So I've heard people
25:54 speak of, oh, yeah, my home sexual desire hasn't changed one iota, not a hair's breadth in all my life. And, I can think of one guy talking about that. And he said, I will not hug men.
26:06 I will not touch them. I may shake a hand and that's it. And I thought to myself, you... I've raised three sons. You have two sons. If there was no touch, believe me, men touch differently
26:18 than women do. Yes. But if there was no touch, you know, even a hey brother or hey brother or whatever, they would be lacking in brotherhood
26:29 feeling. And that's what he's self creating. He's self sustaining this lack of attachment to other men in a proper way. I mean, he's afraid he's gonna sexualize a
26:41 hug. Okay. I appreciate that. But what about, hugging a guy you're not attracted to and, doing it in a safe way, just arm over arm, not
26:52 permanent, not a full body hug. No. You know, you can learn other structures that will help you feel like just another man among men. And that's the very thing he's missing. And I
27:04 think that too comes in these community forums where people get to walk alongside of each other in a safe environment where there's confidentiality, where there's a chance to
27:16 uncover some of the painful things and grow, and that you can then walk into the church with stronger sense of self and a ability to give out instead of taking from others.
27:28 Yes. Do you think that's a a pretty important thing to pull into church? I think it's a huge...
27:33 I think it's a hugely important thing. And I also know you and I have had conversations in the past, around some of these topics. And here's what I wanna also emphasize. I'd love you to speak into this, is what we're
27:43 talking about is healthy healthy love, healthy brotherly, sisterly love, and and that being expressed not only in words, that's very important. We need to do that, but also in in appropriate touch.
27:55 But, also, you and I have issues with organizations that practice, like, holding therapy. Right? So so we're not talking about that.
28:02 No. We're not talking about holding therapy.
28:04 No. Not that at all.
28:04 No.
28:05 Right. So... Yeah. No. That gets into this whole other thing where to me, this this so called practice that is supposed to, I don't know, help somebody in their same sex attraction or whatever,
28:17 to me, it's only aggravating, and and and creating idolatrous moments, and not really helping a person, yeah, not helping a person actually learn how to be in healthy relationship
28:29 brother to brother or sister to sister.
28:31 Absolutely. I mean, I I would... I wholeheartedly agree with you. Holding therapy, I've found is just well, it started out by being expressed in a ridiculous way and dangerous,
28:44 way, and I've not seen it improve over time. I think it's just something that needs to go away. But holding therapy is one thing. Now I'm talking about normal touch
28:56 between normal guys or normal girls and then knowing what your boundaries are and going, gosh, you know, a foot rub probably isn't going to work for me. That might work between these other two gals, but
29:08 not... I'm not I'm not comfortable with that yet. But, having some degree of touch, noticing how healthy, non same sex attracted men
29:19 interact, and Right. You know, they're more acquaintances. How do they interact? Okay. They're really close. They're brothers. How do they interact? And then you can't take that into every relationship. You have to
29:31 appropriately, use the the touch as it as it actually is meant to be. Touch can be assuming way too close of relationship,
29:43 as well. So healthy touch, big deal. But there are also other love languages. Right? There's the five love languages that I'm aware of. Mhmm. Affirmation. Sometimes
29:55 guys... And because I have sons, their affirmation is is expressed by saying, Oh, you blew that one.
30:04 You know, they're right.
30:05 They love to rib each other. And that's a form of love. Right? But that's what my brother, my sons do to each other. And then they laugh and they go, oh, yeah. You got me. You know? And they think that's the
30:17 best thing ever. That's that's affirmation to them, believe it or not. I don't get it. I'm a girl. I'm just standing by the side going, how about you just say
30:27 Well, there's also other guys that don't get it either and don't want that. But when but when you have... But when it truly is a fun thing and it... And it's something that builds a person up, I think it's great.
30:38 Yeah. In this case, it works for them somehow. I don't get it.
30:42 Right.
30:43 I'm glad to know other people don't get it too. Alright.
30:46 Yep.
30:47 But they... Well, man, I So did you...
30:49 I wanted to also just, take a little bit of a shift here. You've been leading, really the the largest membership organization in in... Here in the US
31:01 as well as maybe even, across the world in terms of an organization that focuses on a biblical perspective on, human sexuality, of biblical perspectives on LGBTQ
31:13 issues, and really working to disciple and train others up in these areas. And so I would love for you to speak into, just how Restored Hope Network is doing that, whether that's some of the stuff
31:25 from the foundation of Restored Hope Network or even, some of the newer, initiatives that Restored Hope Network might be engaging in. How do you really shore those things up, as an organization?
31:38 Well, first and foremost, we're membership governed. So it's not just me running this organization.
31:43 That's right.
31:45 I'm glad to be a stable part of it and thrilled to help guide it, But I'm grateful for the board of directors and also the staff who are involved in all this. We really like to collaborate.
31:57 I will bring suggestions to the board. Ultimately, they're my boss, and so they get to decide and then I implement. So we have a really good structure in place. And when everything's flowing well and most
32:09 of the time it is, that is fantastic. I... We've had excellent times, working that out. We have objectives to do, then we have, you know, the
32:21 board will give direction as far as the overarching thing. But recently, what happened is, in the beginning of... Is it? Yeah. This year, I took a
32:33 master's level class with, nonprofit management at Liberty University. And out of that, I knew there would be some gaps in my knowledge, because I did not go for a business
32:44 degree. I did start out that way, but I changed over to education. Anyway, in college, that was a long time ago. I have my gray hair to show, but,Show more
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