Skip to content 3 Leadership Traps to Avoid: A Conversation with Dr. Eric Scalise Oct 30 · 1 hr 3 min ...more
3 Leadership Traps to Avoid: A Conversation with Dr. Eric Scalise
October 30, 2025 · 1 hr 3 min
Discover the significance of putting God's kingdom first for healthy leadership and life.
Series Hope Talks Podcast Videos October 30, 2025 · 1 hr 3 min · Hope Talks Podcast Videos
Discover the significance of putting God's kingdom first for healthy leadership and life. ...more Show the full description Show less Discover the significance of putting God's kingdom first for healthy leadership and life.
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Hope for the Heart is a worldwide biblical counseling, coaching, and caregiving ministry founded by June Hunt in 1986. We’re passionate about helping people
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The Heart of Leadership: Thy Kingdom Come 0:00 There's a difference between saying thy kingdom come and my kingdom come. And far too many leaders switch out thy with my. It leads to unhealthy and dead0:11 things inside of us because it's a wrong perspective.0:15 Welcome to Hope Talks. We're your hosts. I'm Haley Scully along with Dustin Anderson, and we wanna give you every reason for hope for every challenge in life because hope means everything.0:33 Dustin. Hi. Guess what day it is?0:36 Is it bring your boss to work day again?0:38 It is. It is bring your boss to work day. And also, who is joining us on Hope Talks and just celebrated a 40 fifth wedding anniversary?0:48 That would be doctor Eris Scalise.0:50 Really? Eris Scalise. Happy anniversary.0:53 Thank you for pointing out the fact that I'm old.0:56 You are just getting started. Right? Yes, ma'am. 45 years in. Happy anniversary to you and Donna. I saw that this weekend and1:03 Thank you.1:03 Thought we'd give a shout out to them today. So, yeah, bring your boss to work day. Who is doctor Eric Cook?1:08 Maybe it's better to say bring her boss to podcast day.1:11 Oh, like I like Your1:12 boss is obviously at work. So1:14 We're already at work. K.1:16 But, yes. That's funny. On my outline here, we're gonna talk about leadership today. Yeah. But the first thing on my outline for introducing, doctor Eric Scalise is that he's Donna's husband.1:26 Donna's husband. That's what he says.1:29 We say that a lot.1:30 That's what we do. But you've you've said that before to mention that when we introduce you. So, yes, Donna's husband, president and chief strategy officer of Hope for the Heart, also, father of 2 boys. And how many1:42 grandkids? 4. 4. 4 grandkids. Also, licensed professional counselor and licensed marriage and family therapist, professor, author, speaker, lead course instructor for our1:53 foundations of care course and a lot of our Christian life coaching courses with ICCI. You have served in leadership in a lot of different capacities, ministries and organizations, working with2:05 governors, just working with people around the world. And so today, we wanted to glean a little, just wisdom from you on leadership. Okay. And so the first question I wanted to ask just upfront was what2:17 initially got you interested in leadership? You actually have a PhD in leadership, and that's not something everyone does. Yeah. That's true. What what kinda led you into this?2:26 It's in organizational leadership. At the time, I was doing a lot of private practice. Some was a little bit more therapy, and some of it was a little bit more on coaching. And then I was2:38 also doing some consulting with organizations, like looking at organizational structures and communication patterns, problem solving, things like that. And just in2:50 working with leaders and and, the opportunity actually to engage in some serious, ohs with leaders around the world, I the thought hit me. I didn't have a3:02 doctorate at the time since I had enough, in order to be licensed, but I wanted to learn more about the leadership dynamic because,3:13 frankly, of all the mess that I was constantly seeing and hearing about in the aftermath of poor leaders and insecure and unhealthy leaders, I thought,3:25 okay. I'm doing a little bit more with this demographic and a little bit more psychology wasn't gonna really move the needle for me, and I thought, let's study leadership.Leadership Challenges and the Role of Accountability 3:35 Yeah. That reminds me of there was a leadership class we had, in seminary, and I remember we were talking about just, like, the importance of it. And I remember a quote that kinda stuck out where the3:47 professor said leadership is usually the problem and leadership is also the solution. And so I'm wondering I think you've said similar things before, like, this3:58 I would agree. So much of what happens all around us is based on the leaders that we work with, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And most probably the 3 of us as4:09 well as anyone listening to this podcast is gonna say I've been around good leaders. I've been around not so good leaders, and I've been around some ugly leaders, and and ones that have4:21 practically been destructive. And then I've seen what great leadership can do within an organization as well as the flip of that. So, yeah, you're right. I I would a hundred percent4:33 agree with that.4:34 I think with our Hope Talks audience, you know, when we're bringing hope stories to, the conversation, it was kind of a natural thing because all of us in some way4:47 deal with leadership, whatever we call that. If it's our boss, if it is a coach, if it's a parent, if it is spouse to spouse, you know, leadership is it's maybe4:59 a big word, but it's a part of everyday life. So if you were to share with us even a hope story, you know, we always ask people what's a moment where you learn to depend on Christ and5:10 what would your hope story be? What would a hope story be for you? What's a time that you thought depending on Christ and Christ centered principles in leadership is is5:22 an important factor because and not to jump ahead, but I think you lead very well. Now I know there are times that I'm taking notes and have some maybe some suggestions for you, which is5:34 another part of your great leadership that you empower those of us who work for you in in the capacities that we do. Yep. You allow us to lead, and you encourage that. So5:46 I do think you do this particularly well. 905:51 What am I up to today?5:53 You're up to you're up to you were at a good 96. A 96.2.5:57 That's an a.5:58 Yeah. It is an a. It's an a. But what would a leadership hope story be?6:05 Hey. In in my career, because, Dustin, you're right. I've been in leadership spaces in the academic world, in the health care world, in6:17 the organizational world, in the ministry world. And anyone who knows me, it's usually not something I run to. I feel like I make a great second lieutenant. I can get behind a great leader,6:28 and I always see it as, part of my role is to help you be successful as a leader, and I enjoy that. The the hope stories for me is over6:41 the decades now, I have found myself put into leadership roles that I didn't step into initially or wasn't looking for.6:50 Mhmm.6:50 And and it's always including here at Hope for the Heart. Part of that is making yourself available to God even if it's not something you're actively seeking And then watching, hopefully,7:02 how the Lord is gonna use you in a healthy way and in a balanced way to accomplish something that maybe you don't even feel like is your strength. I am a people person, but I I7:14 wouldn't call myself this dynamic leader. And that maybe that goes back to how people think of leadership. Historically, people think of it used to be called the great man theory. It was just7:25 great, amazing people often who were military, commanders or kings, king, queens, prime ministers. You go, oh, they're great, and and so7:37 that's how we define leadership. I'm not in a great position, so maybe I'm not a leader, and that's just not true. Everyone is a leader. If you look at the principle in first Peter7:49 2, when Peter's talking about the priesthood of the believer, I would think a priest is a leader. So if if if we all have the ability to go before God, we don't need8:01 a mediator anymore, and we sometimes function as priests with other people. Like you said, Hailey, could be within my family, could be within my neighborhood, could be within my workspace. Even if I'm not8:12 a departmental or senior leader, I still exercise. So in that sense, I think every person has a leadership mantle on them at some level.8:23 Mhmm. Yeah. Something you said reminded me of Moses when God called him, and he was like, maybe someone else. Did did you feel like that? Because you had mentioned kind of,8:35 like, you know, I'd I'd rather be, like, a second lieutenant, but I've been put in these positions. Is it was it more of a thing of, like, could you call someone else to maybe be in8:47 that kind of front space, or was it just kind of more of like a natural, like Both. Yeah.8:53 A couple of times, it was that as like, oh, really? But there were other times I cared enough about the organization, the mission of the organization. I was more motivated9:06 by making something healthier, successful than maybe me feeling a little insecure in stepping into the role, if that makes sense. And so it was the missional piece of it that was more motivational9:19 and kinda makes you less whiny or complaining before God. But there were a couple times I'm like, yeah. You go pick on someone else. You know, choose someone else. There's lots of great people, you know, in this9:30 organization. I I I'll give you 1 example. I was a department chair, at Regent University, which I was over all counseling programs at Regent University. The other than the9:42 dean, I was the number 2 in that department. I was working on my doctorate, and 1 day, there was, the the current department chair left to go do consulting, and there was9:53 this departmental conversation. K. Who's gonna be the the chair? And the faculty all looked at me and said, Eric's gotta do it. And I said, no.10:06 I said, I've only been teaching for, at that point, for 3 years. And I said, I don't even have a doctorate. I'm like, no. 1 of the faculty members said, yeah, but you have more clinical10:17 experience than the entire faculty combined. You need to lead this department. I'm like,10:24 okay.10:24 Yeah. You know? So that was a time I did not necessarily feel qualified per se, but I was asked to step into something. Yeah.10:33 Why do you think it's so easy for, I wanna say, us? Because I can think of situations in my own life where it's so easy to come up with the reasons why we10:45 disqualify ourselves. You've mentioned that word quite a bit, Hailey, before. Like, when there is an opportunity to step into something, like, even just doing this podcast, I remember when you guys asked me,10:57 I was mentally throwing up. Like, well, there's there's other people Yeah. On staff. I think for me, it was a lot of just, like, fear, vulnerability, you know, that type of thing.11:09 Like, why do you think it's so much easier to think of our, like, yeah. I'm I'm prepared for this. God's calling me to this instead of, like, you know, we tend to think of, like, well, maybe someone else. Or11:20 I I think you're right, Dustin. Fear of failure, fear of rejection. And and the higher you are up in a leader. Let's be honest. The more exposed you are. And when problems11:32 manifest or people have issues, you get the joyful opportunity to become the lightning rod for a lot of stuff. And that's not fun sometimes. And people listen, leadership is lonely and11:44 it can be difficult. And sometimes people like, I I'm gonna be more vulnerable. And if something is successful or not successful, it's gonna get pinned on you. If11:56 someone likes you or doesn't like your leadership, that might and then people sometimes go, you know what? Thanks, but no thanks. I often think of people who run for national office today12:05 Yeah.12:06 Especially when you start getting up to senate or governors, president. I'm like, who in the world would want to have their entire life exposed to do that? Because that is a little bit of the12:17 nature of being in a scene especially in more of a senior leadership position. Yeah. You're more exposed. You're more vulnerable.12:24 Mhmm. As someone who's in leadership and works with a lot of leaders today, like, what do you see are big challenges, like, today? Like, do they change over time? Are they kind of similar,12:36 like, issues that leaders face, or are there kind of particular ones today that are12:42 I think culturally and organizationally, there have been shifts. On the human level, it's the same that it was with Adam and Eve in the garden. So some some things12:53 change and some things don't. You know, we went from a very industrialized world and a very hierarchical vertical leadership orientation, very military. Right? Top down. And and that's how communication,13:05 decision making, team building, everything happened. And then with the industrial revolution and the advent of technology, organizations have become flatter, and13:17 and leadership across an organization has become flatter, so there's more cross rather than top down. Now with the advent of technology and AI and all that, you're having13:29 models that aren't always based on a skill set as much as you about relational capacity. We hear a lot today about emotional intelligence. As a matter of fact, the research13:41 says that an emotionally intelligent leader is often more successful, more competent, and more has greater capacity than someone who just happens to have a skill set in the workplace. Mhmm.13:53 So because organizations have gotten flatter, relationships matter. Well, that brings in all the other junk, if you will, that comes with leadership sometimes.14:04 Mhmm.14:05 So what what I see, and 1 of my curiosity things in studying leadership, it's pretty simple to me, and it starts with insecurity. Mhmm. People,14:16 leaders are not confident or comfortable with who they're looking at in the mirror when they get up in the morning and walk out that door. They're insecure. That insecurity often drives14:28 leaders to overcompensate or compensate to make up for what they perceive as a deficit.14:34 Right.14:34 Some are a little too controlling. Some are outrightly abusive. Some are a little narcissistic. There's lots of compensational strategies we employ. But what happens is that14:46 insecurity leads to isolation and loneliness. Lea leaders are lonely and isolated because they're like, who do I talk to? Talk to a senior pastor who in their14:58 church do they go get counsel from? They're like, I, I, no. And am I gonna share that with a colleague from another church in the same denomination? Probably not. And then15:09 that isolation and loneliness, and by the way, in my opinion, isolation is the number 1 strategy the enemy has to take out a leader. Yeah. But that insecurity which leads15:21 to now I'm gonna be a little more isolated, therefore lonely, is there's a lack of accountability.15:28 Mhmm.15:28 Be they leaders too many leaders do not have truth tellers in their life. Every leader I've ever worked with in terms of therapy or consulting, both in the United States15:40 and internationally, had no real accountability. They fell because nobody was allowed to really speak into their life. Mhmm. Why? Because they were already cut off. And15:52 what was fueling all the bad behavior? Insecurity.15:55 For people that are dealing with leaders that they would say are unhealthy, 1 of the go tos is we always assume arrogance, and you're leading with insecurity.16:08 Like, we assume because there are some people that are like, I should be running the show, but that is probably a little bit more rare than what you're saying, people overcompensating for some insecure16:20 some past situation that now they're gonna prove whatever. So when we're faced with a leader that is behaving that way or has those problems, what would, in your16:32 opinion, be a good response from us? Because we can't then go to that leader all the time and be like, you need a time out, or you need to really address this. There's a lot of fear16:44 in being a truth teller. You know? So how would you encourage the person that needs to address or that is dealing with?16:54 Sometimes when it's called for appropriate, you need to have a face to face. But I'll I'll just say this. I'll use a scriptural example. Going unbidden before the king17:06 was a risky business. Think of Esther. Even think of Nathan who went to David after he fell with Bathsheba. And I 1 thing I've learned is that counsel that's not17:18 asked for is rarely received well, if at all. And so and there are sometimes those prophetic moments where God is saying, I need you to17:30 step in and say something. And and all I'm saying is just be prayerfully sure that that's what God is telling you because sometimes that's needed. Sometimes it's just like prayer.17:41 I I don't wanna minimize because we oh, we can just pray. Listen. Bringing God and the Holy Spirit into a situation through prayer and asking him to orchestrate circumstances or conversations17:54 is not something that I would minimize No. At all. And sometimes it's talking to other colleagues. Sometimes given the nature of it, it's a group conversation with a leader. You know, it's an intervention18:06 almost, and I've I've seen that before. I've actually been engaged in a couple of group interventions with senior pastors over things that no 1 personShow more In this video 0:00 The Heart of Leadership: Thy Kingdom Come3:28 Leadership Challenges and the Role of Accountability18:10 Set Free: The Model of Christ-Centered Leadership34:43 The Woes of Leadership: Lessons from Matthew 2347:46 Hope for Leaders: Prayer, Accountability, and Growth
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